Major/minor Contradiction?

[Vlad]

As a side note to the KE vs ME, I'm not sure that KE would be better measure of bullet effectivness. In theory we don't care much about energy, we care about potential terminal effects. Looking at the hunting industry (because otherwise we would politically incorect), the bigger the game the bigger the bullet diameter and bullet weight. There are 50 other issues at work, but for simplicity's sake MV might be a better thing to measure the KE for our purposes.

[G-ManBart]

We ran 162 gr rn 7.2gr aa@7 wsrp for 178 or so pf. oal same as super.. 9x19 brass.

This load showed some signs of pressure!!!!!!!!

I dont think 9x19 could hold 180gr bullets.

Jim

I'll bet that showed some signs of pressure! I recall the very early Super loads to make major were using 158gr bullets and Blue Dot, but can't recall the powder charge....the memory is the second thing to go;-)

[benny hill]

Anyone that has seen what a 357 mag. with 125 gr. hollowpoint @ 1450 fps does, knows it will stop some as good as any pistol & better than most. I think major should be allowed with any gun that makes it with a factory loading.

[superdude]

I think major should be allowed with any gun that makes it with a factory loading.

Several of CorBon's Factory loads for the 38 Super make Major. And historically the 38 Super's balistics have had a published velocity for the 130 grain bullet of 1280 to 1300fps, which make Major. It could be argued that the current factory loads are watered down versions of past loads - a phenomenon we've seen with other rounds, including the 357 magnum and 10mm.

so maybe the 38 super should be allowed in Major in the other divisions?

[shred]

Jeff Maass' 38 Super data shows a Layne Simpson article where he tried 170 and 180gr bullets. Looks like he got them up to 187+ PF.

It was a conscious decision to mandate .40-or-better-for-Limited-Major, in presence of 9mm-sized major loads, so I'm still unclear on the reason to change. And this coming from a guy with twice as many 38 STI mags as .40 mags.

[XRe]

The fact is, we're playing a game, not shooting in "Real Life ". A game has rules - many of those rules are arbitrary, and were decided upon so that there could be a game in the first place. Without limitations on equipment separated into divisions, we're back in old-school "shoot what ya brung" (which obviously wouldn't bother some people). So, when you start placing limitations on things, you start making arbitrary decisions - this was one of them. As long as everyone in the division is shooting the same gear, with the same restrictions, does it actually matter???

Changing it now will result in just as much whining and moaning as we see about any other change that's proposed that tends to obsolete or make useless some piece of gear that someone owns - and now you're talking about a lot more $$ per shooter than, say, a $60 drop in trigger kit, or $20 worth of grip tape, or....

Allowing .355-ish caliber rounds to make Major will not give anyone any advantage - the general trend will be for everyone w/ a Limited or L-10 gun to rebarrel and buy new mags, and we're all right back on the same page. The only people that benefit are the manufacturers and gunsmiths.

Whether or not to make .357 Sig and 9x25 legal for Major in Limited and L-10 is a slightly different argument, as the potential for capacity gain over .40 is slim to none, but.... its easier to say ".40 and above"...

[Mick]

Newton's third law applies to guns as well. 170 pf is 170 pf! They feel different when launched with different weights and velocity but a soft .40 is as good as a hard Super for the same PF. Remember that when you figure Kinetic energy, velocity is squared in the equation and gives a false appearance of power. Does 9mm really equal a 45? Shoot a pepper popper with both and tell me what you hear and feel...?

If we allowed Super or 9x23 etc... to make LTD major you might not like the feel unless you use really heavy bullets. What's the gain? More rounds in the mag? Ever shoot a factory 9x23mm that makes major in a 1911? I'll stay with the .40/10mm size...

We don't need another "arms race" in LTD!

My next Open gun may be an IMM SV in .40!!!

[revchuck]

It's easy to find pressure-tested .40 S&W loading data. .38 Super has some out there, but there's NONE for 9x19. Everyone concerned has apparently made a conscious decision to NOT pressure-test 9x19 Major ammo, knowing that it's way over any listed limits.

Many shooters use one gun - for example, a G35 - with the factory barrel for both Production and Limited, simply switching mags and maybe holsters and recoil springs. My guess is that the BoD wanted to keep the requirements such that being able to load safe ammo was easy. It'd be tougher to do it in a 9x19.

WAY back when, some folks ran BHPs at Major when the PF was 175. The guns didn't last long at all.

Edited January 20, 2007 by revchuck

[shred]

I remember somebody testing 9x21 ammo. At the lengths we use, it's going to be pretty much the same thing.