Multi-gun Time Plus Scoring?

[ysued]

Most Big Multi Gun/3-gun Matches in the US are run on a Time Plus System, USPSA tried to go that route, it failed to pass?

Why??

Title: Multi Gun - Time Plus scoroing

Date of Motion: 11/15/06 04:26 PM

Closed:

Submitted by: President

Seconded by: Area4

Status: Posted

Result: Failed

Motion: President moves to allow “time plus” scoring in MultiGun matches

Area1: No

Area2: No

Area3: Yes

Area4: Yes

Area5: Abstain, Rollcall Requested

Area6: No

Area7: No

Area8: No

President: Yes

IMHO, Time Plus would have been a great way to go, easy to score, easy to manage!!

Opinions??

Y

[EricW]

Because time plus doesn't recognize the DVC triangle.

[ysued]

Because time plus doesn't recognize the DVC triangle.

Good reason!!

But........

Just about every other Match in the US is using it.

I would like to know both advantages and disadvantages to both Scoring systems.

And for example, the USPSA Nationals rarely fill up to capacity with a waiting list, while the DPMS Match fill up to capacity, same with the Superstition Mountain 3-gun.

It's just me wondering???

Is the DVC Triangle that Important in Multi-gun??

[EricW]

Is the DVC Triangle that Important in Multi-gun??

I've only shot it a couple times. But, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you even bother with pistols in time-plus multi gun. It's a complete waste of time. Any clueless retard can hit brown twice with a handgun in time-plus.

USPSA's roots are in pistol shooting, so it makes sense to me that USPSA would adopt multi-gun rules that require a credible match performance with a handgun.

The only reason that I care it all is the the precident would likely carry over the USPSA pistol matches where competitors would expect to win with the same...ahem...skills required of them at a time-plus match.

[Religious Shooter]

And for example, the USPSA Nationals rarely fill up to capacity with a waiting list, while the DPMS Match fill up to capacity, same with the Superstition Mountain 3-gun.

I seriously doubt that the Nationals isn't filling up because it doesn't use time+ scoring. At the Nationals level the participants don't really have to do any of the grunt work... they don't have to call the hits on paper... they don't have to write it down... etc. It's all done by the RO's.

[George]

I am completely with EricW on this one. I like getting rewarded/penalized for WHERE I put my hits on the target. I don't bother with Time+ plus matches much anymore. I feel shot placement is very important and I don't like the idea of just spraying two at the targets to neutralize them. This neuters the sport IMHO and I think it is way overrated as a scoring method. The only thing it brings to the table is ease of scoring. That is not worth it IMO when it requires watering down the shooting.

I have a crisp twenty dolloar bill that says the 2007 USPSA MG Nationals in Tulsa have the largest attendance ever. The out west locations have kept quite a few east coast folks outa' it for the past few years. Let's see what a central location does in 07!

[ysued]

I have a crisp twenty dolloar bill that says the 2007 USPSA MG Nationals in Tulsa have the largest attendance ever. The out west locations have kept quite a few east coast folks outa' it for the past few years. Let's see what a central location does in 07!

That, I won't dare to take that bet!!

But......

The Matches never filled up, even when they were in Vegas or at the Clark Range in LA!!

I hope participation goes up/

Is the DVC Triangle that Important in Multi-gun??

I've only shot it a couple times. But, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you even bother with pistols in time-plus multi gun. It's a complete waste of time. Any clueless retard can hit brown twice with a handgun in time-plus.

USPSA's roots are in pistol shooting, so it makes sense to me that USPSA would adopt multi-gun rules that require a credible match performance with a handgun.

The only reason that I care it all is the the precident would likely carry over the USPSA pistol matches where competitors would expect to win with the same...ahem...skills required of them at a time-plus match.

Thanks, I was looking for good, intelligent responses!!

I got them.

I do agree with you, but I still want to remain the Devils Advocate here

Do "ALL" USPSA Matches need to be scored the same??

Penalties on Time Plus are stiff!! Yes, you don't have to be as accurate as per our scoring system, but if you use a scoring Time Plus like IDPA you will have to remain accurate due to the fact that you will have seconds added for hits outside the "A" and Missed shots will get severy penalized. IMHO USPSA Scoring will benefit greatly by higher penalties for Missed shots, this will slow down the more Wreckless Hosers!!

Opinions??

[Rob Boudrie]

I can tell you why I voted against Time-Plus :

I had already concluded Time Plus was a bad idea for handgun, and did not want an inconsistency between the fundamental scoring concepts in handgun and three gun and/or multigun. The difference would mean, for example, that the same stage shot as part of a handgun match would be scored in a fundamentally different way if part of a multigun.

Now, on to why I think it's a bad idea (in no particular order)

1. The "speed of results" is a solution to a non-existent problem. I've never seen a match scored without a computer; there is no "Live media" covering matches; and media that covers matches for later viewing has all the time necessary to know hit factors when adding commentary to the film.

2. Time plus does not solve the "flipping" issue - in which the performance of person "C" can actually switch the relative position of persons "A" and "B". Although IPSC originally claimed multi-gun would fix this perceived problem, I proved by counter example that it does not.

3. Now, the most important reason - It changes the stage weighting considerably if you have stages that vary significantly in the time required to complete. For example, under time plus a competitor who cuts 2 seconds off a 30 second field course receives exactly the same scoring benefit as the competitor who shaves 2 seconds off a 6 second El-Prez.

Yamil's observation proves that people will attend great matches even if they are run with time-plus. It does not prove that time-plus is better, or that this scoring is the reason for the high level of attendance.

[Scout454]

The local outlaw matches in VA use time plus.

2 hits per target.

D's are misses.

2 Alpha, 2 Charlie, one each and you're good.

1 Alpha and 1 Delta is a miss.

For Rifle, one Alpha or Charlie works.

Time Plus with DVC

[Chuck Anderson]

I3. Now, the most important reason - It changes the stage weighting considerably if you have stages that vary significantly in the time required to complete. For example, under time plus a competitor who cuts 2 seconds off a 30 second field course receives exactly the same scoring benefit as the competitor who shaves 2 seconds off a 6 second El-Prez.

Actually that's not right. Most, if not all, IMGA matches use time plus but convert that to a percentage. For example, your 30 second stage would be worth 100points and the percentage would be based off the best time. In this case assuming 30 seconds was the best time that shooter would receive 100 point and the shooter with 32 would receive 93.75 points for the stage. The shooter on the 6 second El Prez would do a lot better on that stage. The winner would also receive 100 points but the next shooter down two seconds would only recieve 75 points. The down side to this type scoring, at least in my mind, is the stages aren't close. One shooter can shoot a much lower overall time with the same hits and still finish worse. Just doesn't seem right.

[ysued]

Actually that's not right. Most, if not all, IMGA matches use time plus but convert that to a percentage. For example, your 30 second stage would be worth 100points and the percentage would be based off the best time. In this case assuming 30 seconds was the best time that shooter would receive 100 point and the shooter with 32 would receive 93.75 points for the stage. The shooter on the 6 second El Prez would do a lot better on that stage. The winner would also receive 100 points but the next shooter down two seconds would only recieve 75 points. The down side to this type scoring, at least in my mind, is the stages aren't close. One shooter can shoot a much lower overall time with the same hits and still finish worse. Just doesn't seem right.

The DPMS Tri-Gun also converts Time-Plus to Percentage.

Y

Edited December 26, 2006 by ysued

[Jim Norman]

What I have done for a couple of years was to use HHF scoring at our Multi-Gun to arrive at the baseline score, but instead of using the match points, I used the percentages as points. Each stage then was as important to the match as any other, each being worth 100 points. This, in my opinion, levels the playing field best in a Multi-Gun environment. You have to be all-around good to win. You cannot afford to blow through a 30 point speed shoot and screw it up because it is worth just as much as a 45 round 3 weapon field course with multiple transitions.

There remains the problem of shooting a pistol target with a rifle or visa-versa. San Angelo scoring says that we shoot Rifle targets with rifle and pistol targets with pistol. I am assuming that where I shoot a minor rifle and major pistol, that a pistol hit on a rifle target would score minor, regardless of the fact that the pistol was major, BUT does that carry through in that a minor rifle hit on a pistol target would score minor as well? In other words, one way the target determines the points, the other the weapon platform determines the points. Or to simplify do we just assume the lower PF when scoring. That is, If the target is a rifle target and the shooter is shooting a minor rifle, the target is scored minor regardless of what hit it and if the hit is on a pistol target and is a make up with the rifle, the lower power factor of the rifle would be the determining factor. Make for a bit of a nightmare. Remember, in most Multi-gun matches, you can make up shots with a different platform, providing the prescribed platform has been rendered unserviceable do to a death jam or mechanical failure or running out of ammo.

Time plus really does not work for the reasons Rob mentioned and also for this reason: A shooter can clean house on a long Rifle COF, even with misses added in a 5 seconds each by firing the minimum required shoots at each target as fast as possible and moving on. He may well turn in a low enough time to make up for much lower real performance on the shorter courses. Example would be: everyone really tries to hit the 300 yard poppers, takes 240 seconds to run the COF and has misses. Game-Boy come to bat, he fires two rounds at each popper, actual time 40 seconds, add in 5 second per miss, 10 targets, 50 seconds, his time is now only 90 seconds. All his targets are still standing, but he has gamed the system to a point where anyone trying to hit the targets is basically a fool. He now also has 130 seconds to spend on the other courses of fire. He can slow down a bit and shoot all A's and turn in a better score shooting slower and win having totally trashed a stage. In other words, the closer you come to "Zeroing" a stage scored time plus, the better you do. Misses have to be scored very, very heavily to make the system work on long courses and then the same penalties when applied to short courses tend to slow the match to a precision bullseye match as opposed to a running and gunning match. There are ways to work this out, you can have floating penalties for courses that reflect the presumed times that a particular COF will take a good shooter to shoot properly and cleanly. But even that can be gamed.

HHF converted to percentages and all stages being worth 100 points seems to work best and is easily done in excel.

My $0.03 ( normally only 2 cents, but this was a bit windy, even for me)

Jim Norman

[ysued]

I can tell you why I voted against Time-Plus :

I had already concluded Time Plus was a bad idea for handgun, and did not want an inconsistency between the fundamental scoring concepts in handgun and three gun and/or multigun. The difference would mean, for example, that the same stage shot as part of a handgun match would be scored in a fundamentally different way if part of a multigun.

Now, on to why I think it's a bad idea (in no particular order)

1. The "speed of results" is a solution to a non-existent problem. I've never seen a match scored without a computer; there is no "Live media" covering matches; and media that covers matches for later viewing has all the time necessary to know hit factors when adding commentary to the film.

2. Time plus does not solve the "flipping" issue - in which the performance of person "C" can actually switch the relative position of persons "A" and "B". Although IPSC originally claimed multi-gun would fix this perceived problem, I proved by counter example that it does not.

3. Now, the most important reason - It changes the stage weighting considerably if you have stages that vary significantly in the time required to complete. For example, under time plus a competitor who cuts 2 seconds off a 30 second field course receives exactly the same scoring benefit as the competitor who shaves 2 seconds off a 6 second El-Prez.

Yamil's observation proves that people will attend great matches even if they are run with time-plus. It does not prove that time-plus is better, or that this scoring is the reason for the high level of attendance.

With all due respect, but If we take the line of thinking that we will do things in a certain way, just because we have been doing it that way for 30 years, will prevent us from progress!! IMHO this way of thinking runs rampant in some levels of our sport. Some complain that our sport has evolved to much away from it's roots, but IMHO it has stayed the same in some other ways.

Sometimes progress is a good thing.

Our current scoring system is not a Perfect, It is my feeling that Speed is often rewarded more than accuracy, so it's not a perfect balance of DVC. I have seen Shooters Hose through a stage with horrible hits and countless Misses and still Place very high on a stage!!

This brings me to the No-Penalty misses, remember the 04 Area 3 and the Bowling ball stage?? What good is it to have a set of targets in which a shooter can skip and not "REALLY" engage 3 targets out of a 4 target array and still manage to place very high on that stage?? This IMHO is poor stage Design and our current scoring system encourages this behavior and rewards it!!

Yes, major matches all have access to a computer, but... There's something to be said for a simple scoring system that does not require major computing power to run!!

IMHO there's several procedures within USPSA that would benefit with some revamping, but I won't go into them at this time so we don't take this thread too out of topic.

IMHO 3-Gun the reason shootes have gravitated to the "Other" Matches is not the scoring system, you are right on that Rob, but it is part of it!! Stage design and Match management are other reasons.

I have been to several 3-Gun Nationals, I have only shot One of them, it is still my belief that a version of Time Plus would help Multi Gun. Heck it hasn't hurt the DPMS Tri Gun or the Superstition Mountain 3-Gun at all!! These matches still fill up to capacity and Multi-Gun shooters supprt them more than they have the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals. Now it should be our mission to find out WHY!! In the end, shooters are the judges, and they case their votes by attendance!!!! The match with most attendance wins!! Maybe USPSA should look at these other matches and learn from them.

[ysued]

Time plus really does not work for the reasons Rob mentioned and also for this reason: A shooter can clean house on a long Rifle COF, even with misses added in a 5 seconds each by firing the minimum required shoots at each target as fast as possible and moving on. He may well turn in a low enough time to make up for much lower real performance on the shorter courses. Example would be: everyone really tries to hit the 300 yard poppers, takes 240 seconds to run the COF and has misses. Game-Boy come to bat, he fires two rounds at each popper, actual time 40 seconds, add in 5 second per miss, 10 targets, 50 seconds, his time is now only 90 seconds. All his targets are still standing, but he has gamed the system to a point where anyone trying to hit the targets is basically a fool. He now also has 130 seconds to spend on the other courses of fire. He can slow down a bit and shoot all A's and turn in a better score shooting slower and win having totally trashed a stage. In other words, the closer you come to "Zeroing" a stage scored time plus, the better you do. Misses have to be scored very, very heavily to make the system work on long courses and then the same penalties when applied to short courses tend to slow the match to a precision bullseye match as opposed to a running and gunning match. There are ways to work this out, you can have floating penalties for courses that reflect the presumed times that a particular COF will take a good shooter to shoot properly and cleanly. But even that can be gamed.

HHF converted to percentages and all stages being worth 100 points seems to work best and is easily done in excel.

My $0.03 ( normally only 2 cents, but this was a bit windy, even for me)

Jim Norman

Jim,

You do make a great point, and your solution is a very good one!!

This is why I asked, to get solutions and new ideas not more problems or worse, inactions!!

I think your method has a lot of merit, I have witnessed a similar situation of "GameBoy" and I do agree with you, this goes along with the Skipping the No-Penalty Miss disappearing Targets in order to get a better time!!

Thanks for your input Jim.

Y

[uscbigdawg]

Yamil,

Keeping in mind that USPSA 'traditionally' does a 3-Gun (rifle, pistol & shotgun only stages) vs. Multi-Gun, using the conventional scoring does make sense. In the multi-gun scenario, the target scoring become problematic at best with minor rifle vs. major pistol.

That said, it appears that the scoring went well at the '06 Nationals (as far as I can tell...haven't talked to anyone) but I'm for a time plus based scoring.

My solution to the problem is time plus, but to honor major vs. minor power factor and accuracy, A's are 0 time added. C's are say +3 for Major/+5 for Minor. D's are say +7 for Major/+10 for minor. The time added are guesses, but you get the idea that they will honor both power and accuracy.

Just my two cents. The Vickers scoring system used in North Carolina works okay too. I don't know all the details, but it mostly promotes accuracy and not so much power. I don't know much about San Angelo scoring but have been told it's a great solution too.

As for media coverage, yes they have enough time. However spectators that aren't "shooters" don't have a clue what a hit factor is and frankly I can tell immediately how I'm doing if I go up to another guy and tell him my time on X stage was slower or faster than his and that I'm better or worse than him. More importantly, spectators can tell immediately too (see Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, etc. where results are on the range rather than an hour after the last shot).

Rich

[chendersby]

I voted no for basicaly the same reasons as Rob. Time plus does not reward power (no power factor) and reguardless of how costly a missed target is, time plus is a hose fest and does not reward accuracy. Just my opinion. In USPSA every shot in a match is weighed equally in the overall match.

As to why the matches like Superstition and DPMS are popular is PRIZE TABLE quality and in the case of SMM3gun, great stage design. (I have not shot DPMS so I do not know how the stages are).

We have worked out the multi gun scoring problems so that is no longer a reason for USPSA to go to time plus.

That being said, I shoot both matches. But there is a definate difference how I approach each scoring system. I like the different challenges that presents.

[ysued]

I voted no for basicaly the same reasons as Rob. Time plus does not reward power (no power factor) and reguardless of how costly a missed target is, time plus is a hose fest and does not reward accuracy. Just my opinion. In USPSA every shot in a match is weighed equally in the overall match.

Then what about the Area 3 Stage I mentioned above??

Shooters that Placed high on the Stage were the ones that Took 6 No-Penalty Mikes by not shooting 3 Targets!!! Talk about GamBoy Central!! This is one of the reasons I don't like Disappearing Targets, It makes it too eady for GameBoys to decide to Skip Targets in order to have faster times.

As to why the matches like Superstition and DPMS are popular is PRIZE TABLE quality and in the case of SMM3gun, great stage design. (I have not shot DPMS so I do not know how the stages are).

Both the DPMS and SMM3Gun have Great Stage Design!!

We have worked out the multi gun scoring problems so that is no longer a reason for USPSA to go to time plus.

That being said, I shoot both matches. But there is a definate difference how I approach each scoring system. I like the different challenges that presents.

The BOD is doing a great job a t looking at the rules, you guys should be congratulated on a job well done, but you must admit that more work is needed.

Yamil,

Keeping in mind that USPSA 'traditionally' does a 3-Gun (rifle, pistol & shotgun only stages) vs. Multi-Gun, using the conventional scoring does make sense. In the multi-gun scenario, the target scoring become problematic at best with minor rifle vs. major pistol.

That said, it appears that the scoring went well at the '06 Nationals (as far as I can tell...haven't talked to anyone) but I'm for a time plus based scoring.

My solution to the problem is time plus, but to honor major vs. minor power factor and accuracy, A's are 0 time added. C's are say +3 for Major/+5 for Minor. D's are say +7 for Major/+10 for minor. The time added are guesses, but you get the idea that they will honor both power and accuracy.

Just my two cents. The Vickers scoring system used in North Carolina works okay too. I don't know all the details, but it mostly promotes accuracy and not so much power. I don't know much about San Angelo scoring but have been told it's a great solution too.

As for media coverage, yes they have enough time. However spectators that aren't "shooters" don't have a clue what a hit factor is and frankly I can tell immediately how I'm doing if I go up to another guy and tell him my time on X stage was slower or faster than his and that I'm better or worse than him. More importantly, spectators can tell immediately too (see Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, etc. where results are on the range rather than an hour after the last shot).

Rich

Thanks Rich, this is what I like about this Forum, the great Ideas and suggestions that come from our members!!

BTW, someone please explain the San Angelo system to me, I've never heard about it, but I'm very curious!!

Y

Edited December 26, 2006 by ysued

[George]

San Angelo treats a Multigun match with combined gun stages like a USPSA pistol match. The score entry pages in EZ-Winscore feature an option for additional penalties. All competitors are entered as Major PF. As the stages are entered, each competitor that uses a minor rifle, or pistol is assessed additional penalties of 2-4 points per non-A hit with a minor gun. The only extra handwork needed is to have a scoresheet that shows the pistol, rifle and shotgun targets in their own fields.

It worked absolutely wonderfully at Area 1 in 05 and in Vegas in 05 and in Albany in 06. I personally feel that San Angelo scoring using EZ-Winscore is just barely harder to administer than Time+. I am certain that Angelo would be less complicated to use than any Time+ variant requiring specific hits to be recorded as Rich suggests doing. San Angelo is dead simple to use and it WORKS.

The stage design issue is moot too. You would know this if you shot the 2006 MG in Albany. It was the equal of any of thye RM3G's I have attended as far as stage design quality.

I personally think Chris Endersby and Rob have nailed why Time+ sux. It doesn't do anything but encourage hosing and speed scoring by a small amount. The first is not good, the second is moot now that we have San Angelo.

Accuracy HAS to be recognized and weighted, or we are not really scoring the quality of the stage run, just the speed of it.

[Flexmoney]

We've had these discussions before. There are many scoring options. We will likely have these discussions forever.

Here is some math (maybe we need to get the people from Verizon in here to make sure we get it right):

- USPSA's High Hit Factor is a variable hit factor. The points per second are different for each stage, based on the score of the best (high) shooter on that stage (and in that division). Each point down is worth a variable amount of time. The variable is based on the stage winner.

(We state it as points per second, but it is easy enough for Mr. Math to state it as seconds per point.)

- Time-plus scoring is a fixed hit factor. Each point down is worth a fixed amount of time. Based on...? (an often reasoned, yet still arbitrary value.)

For me, I had to have an understanding of the above...then I could move on and think about the other aspects of the different methods of scoring.

-------------------------

Shooters that Placed high on the Stage were the ones that Took 6 No-Penalty Mikes by not shooting 3 Targets!!! Talk about GamBoy Central!!

...

Both the DPMS and SMM3Gun have Great Stage Design!!

Stage design and stage design. Simple. Amazing how often that is the case.

[chendersby]

- Time-plus scoring is a fixed hit factor. Each point down is worth a fixed amount of time. Based on...? (an often reasoned, yet still arbitrary value.)

The high "hit factor" in time plus is the fastest time after penaties if any. Everyone is the given points based on their percentage compared to the fast time. The only thing fixed in time plus is the maximum points per stage which is 100.

[ysued]

Shooters that Placed high on the Stage were the ones that Took 6 No-Penalty Mikes by not shooting 3 Targets!!! Talk about GamBoy Central!!

...

Both the DPMS and SMM3Gun have Great Stage Design!!

Stage design and stage design. Simple. Amazing how often that is the case.

I'm aware that Stage Design has a lot to do with it.

We keep beating this to death, yet we keep seeing these same issues pop up again and again!! And Stage designers complaining that shooters are gaming their stages!!

If it was my choice, i would do away with Disappearing Targets and No-Penalty Mikes, heck nobody is shooting the darn targets anyway!!

The high "hit factor" in time plus is the fastest time after penaties if any. Everyone is the given points based on their percentage compared to the fast time. The only thing fixed in time plus is the maximum points per stage which is 100.

Call me stupid, Dense or plain Moron, I have been shooting for almost 14 years and I still get confused with the USPSA Scoring System!!

I shouldn't have quit Math after Calculus and Differential Equations in College!!

Y

[Flexmoney]

- Time-plus scoring is a fixed hit factor. Each point down is worth a fixed amount of time. Based on...? (an often reasoned, yet still arbitrary value.)

The high "hit factor" in time plus is the fastest time after penaties if any. Everyone is the given points based on their percentage compared to the fast time. The only thing fixed in time plus is the maximum points per stage which is 100.

Chris, what you and I are talking about are two seperate aspects of the scoring, I believe. I have a long (acedemic) thread around here on that someplace...I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Chuck Anderson]

Keep in mind there are two time based scoring methods. Straight time plus penalty scoring is just that. Your total time plus any penalties. I don't actually know of any big matches using this method of scoring. Most of the big matches use time/plus then use the top time to set a high factor for the stage and everyone else is a percentage of him. Time plus is really screwy and the stages either have to be very close or one stage can completely outweigh the rest. I shoot a local rifle match that scores this way and it's really annoying. The other goofy way is based on your placement. 4 stages, 1st on each and you have 4 points. Lowest wins. You can be 1st on three by 30 seconds total then bobble on stage 4 and come in 8th and lose the match big.

[Flexmoney]

Keep in mind there are two time based scoring methods. Straight time plus penalty scoring is just that. Your total time plus any penalties. I don't actually know of any big matches using this method of scoring.

Right...like IDPA.

Most of the big matches use time/plus then use the top time to set a high factor for the stage and everyone else is a percentage of him.

Sure...that is how the scoring of the stage points are awarded, but that isn't the same as setting the hit factor.

Hit factor is a ratio of points per second. Which is the same exact thing as a ratio of seconds per point.

[if anybody really cares, I'll type out the explanations...]

[ysued]

Hit factor is a ratio of points per second. Which is the same exact thing as a ratio of seconds per point.

[if anybody really cares, I'll type out the explanations...]

Pleeeease, no, my head hurts