JFD Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 I normally shoot IPSC with stages set up by a guy with a lot of experience at it. Sunday I shot an IDPA match that required the shooter to shoot from a particular side of the 2 barricades they had. I somehow missed this on the walkthrough and got burned with a deserved procedural. I was having a hard enough time shooting targets in the open while on the move near to far when there wasn't a whole lot of difference between the 3. If I was to shoot the same stage in next week's USPSA match, they would very likely staple a no-shoot on the sides they didn't want you to shoot from. This seems like better stage design. I would like to get into designing stages in the future and am curious what anyone thinks about the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Almost all problems, disagreements and arbitrations can be avoided with better stage design. I'm glad you're so interested in setting up quality stages for your fellow shooters to enjoy. The first step would be to take a Level 1 Range Officer class through USPSA. They will get you started in the right direction. Good luck and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Don't ever assume anything like that. Read the course description. I staple no-shoots on the sides of barricades and vision barriers because I expect you will be shooting near them and I don't want you to destroy the club's props. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted August 16, 2002 Author Share Posted August 16, 2002 Thanks for the thoughts. The specifics about which side they wanted us to shoot from were not on the course description. This must have been added later. I must have been too involved in trying to program myself to shoot the center targets correctly, and missed this important change. I was almost going to shoot from the left (wrong) side of the first barricade, then changed my mind and avoided a second procedural by accident. It was a good learning experience and didn't hurt my score too much. In the future I'll listen more closely. The range officer class is a very good suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 "The specifics about which side they wanted us to shoot from were not on the course description. This must have been added later. " That is total b.s. All the info should be in the course description...that is what makes it a course decription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted August 16, 2002 Author Share Posted August 16, 2002 I thought that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Good post. Shot a recent IDPA match where there was disagreement on what was to be done. Course description had no mention of it, walkthru for SO's did not address an issue, so when questions came up, the SO deferred to the course description. it's not there, well.... This get's back to a different post on "opening your mouth". If we don't point things out, they can't get any better. Remember,, Einstein's definition of insanity was doing the sme thing over and over and expecting a different result. if we don't say something, and nobody else does, why be surprised if teh same things keep happening! Hmm, kind of like the mistakes I still make while shooting....do the same things and wonder why I don't improve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted August 16, 2002 Author Share Posted August 16, 2002 I did keep my mouth shut, although of course I questioned where that particular requirement came from after I got hit with the penalty. After I got the procedural I doubt if my opinion on the stage design would have been accepted as anything more than sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmz Posted November 4, 2002 Share Posted November 4, 2002 Not really your fault. More of bad stage design by dictating your shooting position which would only be done due to safety considerations which in all case should have been avoided in the first place. That's why there is a school for range officers like NROI (ipsc) and for the IDPA they call them safety officers. All gun clubs should have a representative to these orgs so that they can hold matches with safe and good designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 4, 2002 Share Posted November 4, 2002 "After I got the procedural I doubt if my opinion on the stage design would have been accepted as anything more than sour grapes." Unless the guys running the match/stages were total jerks - high unlikely - that's probably not true. If it's not in the course desciption, not in the the walk-through, there's no way they can hit you with a procedural for not doing it. Bring that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted November 5, 2002 Author Share Posted November 5, 2002 I'll keep that in mind for future matches. So far I haven't shot IDPA with those guys since the match being discused here, but political crapola within the club in 2003 is going to result in me having to shoot several of these matches whether I want to or not. At least now I feel better prepared to deal with any irregularities I'll surely come across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Million Mom Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 A lot of fights have been won by guys who 'cheated", but also, a lot of Medals of Honor were won by guys who did what was VERY insane. They got lucky, and also took advantage of the surprise element. Jeff always said that if it isn't specifically prohibited, then it is permitted. At the 78 Nationals, guys were being penalized for using their strong hands, after crossing the "weak line" on the Cooper Assault Course. At that time, the weak line was at the front of the tunnel. Someone pointed out that noone was complaining about guys using both arms in order to crawl thru the tunnel. So Jeff moved the weak line to the end of the tunnel. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 The big problem with IDPA in the area is that USPSA shooters are watched closely for any sort of "non-conformist" behavior. I think they call it gaming and throw around things called FTDR penalties. My local club (the subject of this thread) is pretty loose with the rules in general, and so far haven't targeted us USPSA guys. For instance, last Sunday I performed a speed load while moving between cover and only received a single penalty. I'm no IDPA rules expert, but it seems I broke at least a couple of rules with that reload since I dropped the partially loaded mag and wasn't behind cover when I did it. In my USPSA stages, if I want people to shoot from a particular place, then I use vision barriers or even no-shoots to try and force them to do what I want, mainly for safety reasons. Setting up stages with almost no props, even though props are available, then making up all kinds of rules as to how the stage is to be shot, seems awfully lame to me. I came to shoot, not memorize how I have to shoot targets from certain sides of different barricades, when all targets are visible from the start position. Obviously these stages are worse case situations, but I see one of them at every match. Right now I've been designing IDPA stages and passing them on to their MD even though I may never shoot IDPA again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC CHIK1 Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 i went to a weekly night shoot at a local club. (NOT Rio Salado). after paying my match fee and gearing up i read a stage description. start in box A, stand in place and turn in circles. at between 4 and 7 spins the start signal will be given. i immediately protested this as unsafe. when told "it is the same for everyone" i got a bit miffed. i put my gear away, demanded and received a refund, and asked the match director if he stayed up late thinking of stupid unsafe ways to start stages. as one of the top 5 shooters at this club my protests were noted by many and this unsafe procedure has never been reused. SharonAnne L2387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 Your "turning in circles" experience makes me feel a lot better about what I've been running into. That is just plain stupid. Glad you chose the safe route. "it is the same for everyone" is hardly a worthy response to a safety related complaint. Actually it's almost never a worthy response to any complaint, but in this case it's especially pitiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC CHIK1 Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Amen JFD SharonAnne L2387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Rat Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 I would suggest the best way to allieviate this problem is show up early, pick up a stapler and carry a few props into spot and be involved up front and early in course of fire development......... Cause what really sucks is, after all the planning, set-up, and RO time put into doing a match, is listening to all the whinning, usually from the more experienced shooters who only seem to have enough time to shoot the match........... TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Nobody likes being nit-picked to death, that's why I stopped shooting IDPA, it just wasn't fun, too many rules. If you want to get into designing stages for your local club, I'm sure your MD would greatly appreciate that. Just show up an hour or so early and set what you think would be a great course. If your MD or experienced shooters are nice folk, they'll let you know what you did wrong and help you get it up to speed. ALL clubs need people to help set stages, you know why? Because too many people get overworked and burnt-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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