aerosigns Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Hi guys. I figured this was the fastest way to talk to those of you in the know. First this is not one of my personal guns. One of my students had a squib round stuck in the barrel. (No I didn't load the ammo either) It was factory Remington .38 spc. The problem grew exponentially when he didn't realize it and managed to pack 4 more rounds in behind it. It was a nightmare. Bullets in the barrel, one bridging between the cylinder and the barrel so the cylinder couldn't be opened. We drilled out the majority of the bullets. Used a rod to push the rounds back as much as possible. I did a post mortem autopsy and found that the frame mounted pin that the hammer rides on broke off. I'm not sure but I think the gun died. Now we are up to the question part of the show. Is this pin repairable? I know that the barrel can be changed, and the related costs. But I don't have any experience with this pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Yes. The pin can be replaced. (rewelded to the frame) The real question is how much other damage there is. If the barrel is bulged AND the frame is involved, it would be cheaper to bury this one and start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 My plan for this is to use it as a demonstration piece to classes for what an idiot shooter can do to a gun. It still has two bullets in the barrel that I haven't been able to get out yet. I told the other guys that you can't believe how bad I feel about this gun being wrecked over something like this. I feel like my favorite goldfish died. The hot gases escaping on the round between the cylinder and barrel actually cut two slots in the forcing cone at about 4 o'clock. I'm not sure but it may have damaged the cylinder. I can see that the crane is out of shape due to getting the rounds moved enough to open the cylinder. The barrel doesn't 'look' bulged, and the grips are still in good shape. I spoke with the guys at S&W today. We thought that we were over $400 before we even got to the pin. Since this is for a box stock model 65 I knew we were in the dead zone. But it did bring it to mind if this is repairable. I can't tell from looking at it, if this pin is pressed in, or welded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 It was factory Remington .38 spc. I would be looking to Remington/UMC to make this right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 I have a pretty good relationship with the guys at Remington, and Winchester ammo. The Remington guys are replacing all of my ammo. Which is a very sizeable order. They also want all of the involved empty cases. I don't know if I feel good with blaming them for the loose nut behind the wheel. There wouldn't have been any damage if the guy would have noticed the there were no related holes in the target, when the gun made a muffle bang noise. Something that got my attention was when sparks came out from the cylinder. I caught three other guys out of the corner of my eye, trying to beat me to the shooter. Everyone within 30 ft. saw it, except the shooter. I'm a little sensitive to this issue as you might guess. Side Note - Mike I going out to your old stomping grounds. Work is sending me to THE academy for Revos. Anything that I should go see while I am in the greater Springfield, Mass area. Check this out on my paperwork. - Students attending have access to the following; Student membership to the SSC membship range $5; $5 gun rental fee; 10% discount on store items. The S&W SSC rental counter is stocked with 80 different S&W products for you to try and enjoy during your stay here at the Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haras Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Sounds like the hammer stub will be the least expensive part of this. I had a trigger stud replaced earlier this year and and a new cylinder fitted (I furnished the cylinder). It cost about $95 total. I would imagine you're talking about less than $50. Yes, the repairs were made by S&W and the turn around was about 2.5 months. They did a nice job and I'm happy with the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Side Note - Mike I going out to your old stomping grounds. Work is sending me to THE academy for Revos. Anything that I should go see while I am in the greater Springfield, Mass area. Cool!! Actually, the memories of my 3 years in New England are fading a little bit, but I'll bet Dave P. and John S. (among others) can give you some good advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Xtreme Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 You can do a tour of the S&W factory, thats cool, and the Springfield Armory National Museum is also excellent. Is the Gun school at the S&W facility? If so I wonder if its near the weekend of one of the indoor IPSC matches starting in January. Westfield practical shooters hold a monthly match at the S&W facility during the winter months. It pretty neat, we get to shoot out back in some of the very old ranges. Indoor 100 yd rifle range, and one thats called the meat locker (its very cold). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) Side Note - Mike I going out to your old stomping grounds. Work is sending me to THE academy for Revos. Anything that I should go see while I am in the greater Springfield, Mass area. Cool!! Actually, the memories of my 3 years in New England are fading a little bit, but I'll bet Dave P. and John S. (among others) can give you some good advice! CT Valley Museum-SWCA has some items there. New S&W Museum at the factory Basketball Hall of Fame Springfield Armory Indian Motor Cycle Museum around the corner from the Sports Shooting Center off page BLVD (Nothing fancy, but if you like old Bikes) Julie Goloski E mail ahead she may have more ideas as for what is going on in the area. As for the Winter IPSC Matches, they may not be happening (per last e mail from Judith) but let me know when you will be here and I will let you know. BACK TO ORIGINAL TOPIC: I have a cylinder, yoke, and a heavy barrel for a Model 10 if that helps. Edited November 28, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 I have had the hammer pin replaced on my S&W 686. From what I can tell, the part is not welded to the frame but staked in. This repair requires rebuffing the exterior of the frame, and refinishing if the gun is blued. The pin is staked in from the inside and, when the gun is detail stripped, it's obvious that the pin had been replaced as these guns do not originally come with such staking marks. Even though the job looks ugly from the inside, it looks find form the outside and the gun has not given me any trouble since this happened about 15 years ago (although I don't shoot this gun that much). Hopefully, you'll find that this is covered under the S&W lifetime warrantee if you encounter a situation where the only problem is a broken pin rather than a blown up gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 There's 2 methods for replacing the pins on a S&W Revolver. I've had'em both. Fastest is to put a "Crown Stud" in, this leaves a noticable dimpled pin head in the frame (as viewed from the right). Re-bluing usually not needed. Had a M28 Hammer Stud done like this. Best looking is a replacement stud installed, which requires silver soldering and re-bluing. Had a M29 Trigger Stud done like this. The original is soldered in too, I believe. Which is why nobody I talked to would do a pin replacement but S&W. TK said he had done one, once, but he no longer stocked 3 pairs of hands which was required to do the job. Is the forcing cone slots too deep to just reset the barrel? Luckily it sounds as if nobody was injured, unless the shooter was trampled. Maybe S&W will take it as a donation to their musuem, then write it off the old 1040. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 The Model 65 in question is stainless. After talking with the guys from S&W we were at barrel replacement, yoke replacement, Pin repair, Possible damage to the cylinder. This is owned by the institution that I work for, so I am not too worried about the bottom line. Smith said that they would take it and give me an estimate, then return, repair, or destroy at my option. The over the phone estimate, when you include over night shipping, times 2 was over $400. This is a 65-4, with pretty fair amount of rounds through it. When you consider the cost of a new gun, we depreciated this one out years ago. What I have decided to do, is to make it a training aid. When I brief shooters prior to any activity I always include a brief explantion of squibs. People have always looked at me with that "Yeah Right!" kind of look. I am getting extreme mileage out of this thing with shooters. First they can't believe the damage, then they can't believe that anyone could be stupid enough to keep plugging away with no holes showing up on the paper. (The shooter was warming up at 3 yards) And now none of them want to be the next center of my attention. On the fun side - I am leaving on Tuesday the 5th. I have already told the wife everyone is getting S&W T-shirts for Christmas. Does Julie live in that area? Does she ever frequent the forum? I'm sure she would understand the key points I would be interested in. (Who cares about stinking basketball, when they have rooms full of guns I haven't shot yet.) I was going to contact S&W and see if there will be any training activities at night. I think class is 0800 - 1600 everday. The Springfield museum closes at 1700. I plan to use my time there as vigorously as possible, and think of you guys while I'm doing it. I am going to be so broke when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 (edited) Talk of great training aids, too bad you didn't use a plasma cutter to cut a slot along the barrel and leave "all" the bullets in it. For the denser among us sometimes a gentle tap needs to be made..... with a 10 pound sledge! Reminds me of the joke about a farmer who sold his mule. You gotta' get his attention first. I am going to be so broke when I get home. says Aerosigns. Ah! but the smile will be priceless! Edited November 29, 2006 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 What I have decided to do, is to make it a training aid. When I brief shooters prior to any activity I always include a brief explantion of squibs. People have always looked at me with that "Yeah Right!" kind of look. I am getting extreme mileage out of this thing with shooters. First they can't believe the damage, then they can't believe that anyone could be stupid enough to keep plugging away with no holes showing up on the paper. (The shooter was warming up at 3 yards) And now none of them want to be the next center of my attention. Try not to be too hard on them (particularly for the person that did the deed). I think this is a valuable example of what can happen in the use of any device when the human operator enters a certain mental zone. Examples of this go back hundreds of years. I recall reading about and seeing a photograph of a civil war rifle that had been completely filled with bullets and powder. At some point in a battle, a charge did not fire and the soldier continued to reload and "fire" subsequent loads on top of the first failed load until no more loads would fit into the barrel. We humans make similar mistakes in all facets of our daily lives. We assume certain things will happen as they always have and our minds fill in whatever is missing (or subtract what should not be there) because we expect a certain result. This is more of a challenge to the trainer than to the trainee. How do you train a human to see/hear/smell/taste/feel the unusual when much of the training we all experience is repetition of everything going correctly? How can you prepare someone to detect something they have never personally seen and that only occurs once-in-a-million events? I don't know that I would characterize the shooter that did this, necessarily, as stupid. They may be, but this event isn't about stupidity, it's about how humans react when something unexpected occurs and no one else is there to help them evaluate it quickly enough. For many of us with training and safety responsibilities, this is our critical challenge; teach people to do repetetive tasks and somehow inoculate them against seeing and hearing what they have come to expect to see and hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Hi guys.I figured this was the fastest way to talk to those of you in the know. First this is not one of my personal guns. One of my students had a squib round stuck in the barrel. (No I didn't load the ammo either) It was factory Remington .38 spc. The problem grew exponentially when he didn't realize it and managed to pack 4 more rounds in behind it. It was a nightmare. Bullets in the barrel, one bridging between the cylinder and the barrel so the cylinder couldn't be opened. We drilled out the majority of the bullets. Used a rod to push the rounds back as much as possible. I did a post mortem autopsy and found that the frame mounted pin that the hammer rides on broke off. I'm not sure but I think the gun died. Now we are up to the question part of the show. Is this pin repairable? I know that the barrel can be changed, and the related costs. But I don't have any experience with this pin. I saw a Smith Model 10 with the same situation. The guy on this one filled the barrel with bullets and finally noticed something was wrong when the cylinder refused to turn. The first bullet was protruding from the front of the barrel. The gunsmith managed to drill out the bullets and the gun did function again. BUT The accuracy sucked afterwards. Darndest thing I ever saw in a revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 Ken, As Always, you are right. That's why you are my hero. I know that my current mental state would not work if I would try to explain the situation to the shooter. Knowing that I have allowed other tasks to keep me busy, and away from any of the shooters right now. When I have settled down, and formulated a way to relate the lesson and not the feelings I am certain this will be a very valuable lesson. Probably worth more than the gun. Dave - I had thought about cutting away the barrel to show the bullets, but I don't have access to anything that might night destroy the bullets. They are frangible. But you can see them from both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Well, I can't take credit like that without protesting. I just can't bear to tell you how badly I screw things up, routinely. You and your troops are in that dangerous land of routine monotony that could flip to catastrophic chaos instantly; but you don't need *me* to tell *you* that. So a squib reveals that a certain percentage of your force is performing important tasks on "auto-pilot". (It probably could have happened to a number of the other shooters that day) I don't want to know; but I wonder how many other crucial tasks are being performed from memory instead of cognizant evaluation of the events and steps as they occur? How would you evaluate that? Maybe a squib salted into practice ammo every now and again would be worth the occasional ruined gun just to keep everybody focused on the gun, the target, and whether or not things are really happening as we expect them to. Maybe that's a stupid idea. BTW, what *is* the proper next step after a squib on a target 3 yards away? I do know I spend an awful lot of my professional life following around behind regular people that occasionally do something monumentally...er, um, "Stupid". Sometimes it's defective product, sometimes it's a wrecked machine, sometimes somebody gets hurt. Grappling with those "Human Factors" is where the money is in Manufacturing. I'll go out on a limb and say the stakes are even higher where you work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 In my shooting life I have had 9 squibs. 7 were factory loaded rounds. Now that I am factory sponsored I was able to add some spice to "Junk in the Trunk" and "Room with a View". To be honest there was a stupid move. (I will always look in the case from now on.) What I have done now with the shooter is to schedule training next week, and invited him to the training, to help me teach others what it was like, what did it feel like, etc. To share his operational experience. As far as your wisdom goes... I use your card for my bookmark in my Saul Kirsch book "Thinking Practical Shooting". I read a section and then think WWKD.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 routine monotony that could flip to catastrophic chaos instantly You've obviously seen Jim shoot a field stage...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted November 30, 2006 Author Share Posted November 30, 2006 Your killin' me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Just joshin' Jim. Waltermitty was getting all philosophical again, figured somebody needed to lighten things up! (He's very wise, though!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I do tend to pontificate a little too much. Sorry guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I do tend to pontificate a little too much. Sorry guys. Pontifi......what? Where is the dictionary, I have to look something up..... Main Entry: pon·tif·i·cate Pronunciation: pän-'ti-f&-"kAt Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing Etymology: Medieval Latin pontificatus, past participle of pontificare, from Latin pontific-, pontifex 1 a : to officiate as a pontiff b : to celebrate pontifical mass 2 : to speak or express opinions in a pompous or dogmatic way aahhh... I see, a "know-it-all" with an attidude? Where do you get them difficult words from, Waltermitty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I know Waltermitty, and he's not at all pontificatious in person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Where do you get them difficult words from, Waltermitty? My Thesaurus. I know Waltermitty, and he's not at all pontificatious in person! But you have to admit, the big pointy hat is quite slimming. Edited December 1, 2006 by Waltermitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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