Sig 556

[Cactustactical]

This is a really curious forum phenomenon lately. It seems if you haven't seen something in person, much less haven't given it a serious workout at the range, that those two facts automatically qualify one to inform the universe how whatever you haven't seen or used can't possibly work.

Have to agree here, I have seen it several times here recently and it is really puzzling. People poo-poo the new product immediately for various reasons and then stay stick with the "golden" products of the moment.

We should be happy that companies are coming out with new products and variants. It costs a lot of money to create a new design and adapt / make the machinery to manufacture the new stuff. Give the new stuff a chance before you put it down.

On the Sig 556, I can't wait for them to come out because it helps to legitimize the concept of a gas piston gun on an AR platform. POF here in Phoenix has been producing them in bulk for around 2 years and they are having a 3-4 month wait for delivery they have so many orders. The company has moved to a larger facility and bought more machines to keep up and cut down on the delivery time. There are several people using the big bulky POF gun in 3 gun matches and it hasn't slowed them down a bit. Like I said, keep an open mind on a "new" item before ruling it out. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[kellyn]

The point I was making was directed at Kelly Neal. That guy pushes his FAL just about as fast as anyone can run an AR. I didn't notice a free float tube on his gun. I would be surprised if the 556 used a different thread pitch than the AR so all the muzzle breaks should work. The questions would be accuracy and trigger work. Beyond that there is nothing that would preclude it from working.

True enough, I have had some success the the FAL even against ARs, particularly at the 2002 3 Gun Nationals (but note that Bennie beat me with ... drum roll please .... an AR). That FAL did have a free float tube by the way. Kurt Miller has done quite well shooting against ARs with an M1A at SOF.

I am not trying to bag on the SIG 556 (which I have seen and handled but not fired) and it appears to be an excellent weapon, if a bit heavy. If you want to get one and race with it, more power to you. In the end, it will always be the man not machine, witness TGO whipping all comers (Open, Limited etc) with his XD at several Rio Salado's monthly matches.

BUT to stack up a SIG 556 against the AR15, which has about 30 years of competitive shooting development put into it, sounds like a risky proposition to me. I highly doubt that the SIG 556 will have 10% of the number of evil geniuses that have tinkered with, tortured, and improved on the AR15. No aftermarket parts, no JP, no Accuracy Speaks, no MTSN. Who knows, maybe the JP SIG 556 will become the dominant platform but it certainly ain't there yet and I don't want to be first.

So buy one and prove me wrong.

[BBunin]

BUT to stack up a SIG 556 against the AR15, which has about 30 years of competitive shooting development put into it, sounds like a risky proposition to me. I highly doubt that the SIG 556 will have 10% of the number of evil geniuses that have tinkered with, tortured, and improved on the AR15. No aftermarket parts, no JP, no Accuracy Speaks, no MTSN. Who knows, maybe the JP SIG 556 will become the dominant platform but it certainly ain't there yet and I don't want to be first.

So buy one and prove me wrong.

That arguement is applicable to ANY new product, though.

When the Glock came out, there were no aftermarket parts for it.

When the XD came out, there were no smiths tuning it up.

Any new product will have to stand on it's own merits, with the tuners and tweakers coming later...

[1911vm]

I spoke to a couple of people ho have had an opportunity to shoot the gun and one in particular. He spends a lot of time at sig and knows a lot about the gun and speaks very highly about it and I respect his opinion, being a firearms instructor for police departments that including sniper school he has some knowledge about long gun.

But it is all-foreign to me because in my lovely state of CT. I cannot have one. All the had to do is change the one number, first digit to anything but 5 but no.

[George]

I agree with Kelly 100% because he is wise enough in all things rifle to see what I see too (even better than I in fact).

I think the 556 will be an excellent choice for use where the piston driven action will go a long way towards making it a reliable and therefore preferred tool. Lets face it, AR's can be finicky and I think I would much rather pull one of these outa' the trunk of the patrol car in a big hurry after it had been sitting there for a month or two in all kinds of weather and had not been cleaned since it's last firing. Yeah, much rather grab a 556 than a run of the mill commercial grade AR in this type of situation.

This will be a great department issue gun I am sure, but for the reasons Kelly mentioned, it just ain't there yet for the racing world. It would be like running a stock Porsche in Formula One, a good driver will show well in an off the shelf race car, but against his peers in custom cars he's gonna' have to work a good bit harder to not get lapped, let alone show.

I am serious about the 3" plus POI to POA offset being a big issue in CQ situations. It's a PITA to aim at the top of the upper A/B as it is with the 2.5" AR offset, let alone another inch+ into thin air to get that Alpha instead of a Bravo. In competition this is just a couple points and a bit of a PITA, in real situations an inch IS a mile when you are trying to be precise at close quarters and there, it will be more than a PITA.

Give one to Kelly, Kurt, or any of the other acknowledged BD's and it will place, not just show in competition, but it will also need to be pushed just a tad harder by these folk to get to the same place a well setup AR gets in the same hands. Give it to me and I will push it into the top of the heap too, I would just prefer to shoot one of my customized AR's. This is just plain fact and obvious to anyone who truly understands all things rifle and shoots IPSC style rifle competition with great skill and passion.

I think SIG products are great. I would not trade my 226 for anything when it comes to reliability and safety in a firearm, I assume this rifle will excel in these areas too. That matters a lot where I see this gun going to good use ;-)

[kurtm]

Okay, to pull a rifle out of the back of a patrol car it would have to be an M-14/M1A in my perfect world, and a few agency agree! After all we are talking RIFLE here! Now as to carbines an AR, mini-14, winchester 94 ( borders on rifle), Sig 556 would all be just fine in the police roll, but we ARE talking racing here.

Let,s look at the Sig for a moment ( yes I have played with one, Police demo gun over 500 rounds ) It is WAY heavy and blocky also. The controlls aren't ergonomically designed and there are pleanty of SHARP rails and snags waiting for the hand to find. I liken it to an H&K 93 only with sharp corners. Now why in the world hasn't some "top shooter" done real well with an H&K 93? We all know the answer to that, and yet we seem to be jumping on George for pointing out the short comings of this system ( 556 ) when it's advocates haven't even played with one yet either.

I don't have to drive a late model race car to know if it handles or not, all I have to do is put it on the scales and look at the chassis ballance. Then look at stagger and off set.

I am sure that it is one whale of a carbine, but how many guns are designed by non shooters? How many times have you said to yourself "why the hell did they do that??" The Sig has quite a few of those questions in my mind and if they end up with a "top shooter" to shoot it, I think it will cost them a lot, as I don't know anyone who would want to run it. BTW all the short commings of the Sig are exhibited by the Galil, Valmet, H&K 93, and Robinson Arms 63, so it is in good company. None of this is to insinuate that it isn't a very robust, well made carbine, it just isn't race ready and probably never will be IMO! KURTM

[George]

Okay, to pull a rifle out of the back of a patrol car it would have to be an M-14/M1A in my perfect world, and a few agency agree! After all we are talking RIFLE here! Now as to carbines an AR, mini-14, winchester 94 ( borders on rifle)

Kurt, you make a good point there about a having "Real" rifle round available when you are thinking you might be needing a "Rifle" ;-)

While we're at it, might as well gettin' that "Gauge" outa' the trunk too!

[Cactustactical]

Kurt,

I am not an 'advocate" of the 556, I have not handled one enough to have an informed opinion. We won't make any money off of them by selling them, i don't have a dog in this race.

I simply am saying that the recent board trend to bash products without having time to form an opinion based on facts is not a good thing. People should keep an open mind on a newly introduced item until they have enough data to justify or negate their biases.

All I'm saying is keep an open mind, I don't think thats too much to ask.

I do believe that you can put almost any gun ( as longs as it runs) into a top shooters hands and he will place pretty consistently. Too much emphasis is made of the equipment and not enough of the top %'s ability.

[EricW]

Kurt,

I am not an 'advocate" of the 556, I have not handled one enough to have an informed opinion. We won't make any money off of them by selling them, i don't have a dog in this race.

I simply am saying that the recent board trend to bash products without having time to form an opinion based on facts is not a good thing. People should keep an open mind on a newly introduced item until they have enough data to justify or negate their biases.

All I'm saying is keep an open mind, I don't think thats too much to ask.

I do believe that you can put almost any gun ( as longs as it runs) into a top shooters hands and he will place pretty consistently. Too much emphasis is made of the equipment and not enough of the top %'s ability.

Ditto. I don't really give a rat's ass about the rifle. It's the bashing that's really getting embarassing. Sig didn't produce a "race" rifle. They produced a tactical rifle. And here people are bashing the crap out of it. It's like calling a 747 a POS because it's not a submarine.

Let's start at the top:

anyone know if the Sig 556 is available yet?

Nobody asked if it was any good. Nobody asked if it was a race gun. They just wanted to know if was available yet. There was absolutely no indication given of why they wished to purchase the Sig rifle. The ensuing posts about how the Sig was no good and unworthy of IPSC competition weren't solicited and needn't be offered.

Reputable companies that spend a truckload of money developing good products that the market wants ought to be allowed to succeed in the marketplace on their own merits without getting trashed on the internet by people who haven't even used their products. (Kurt excepted, since he actually used one... imagine that!)

And...if the case was "I used a Sig 556 and found it unsatisfactory because of X, Y, and Z," I wouldn't even have an issue with it. It's the argumetative ignorance that really sticks out in all of this.

Edited December 12, 2006 by EricW

[George]

If it was a bunch-o-greenies doing the negative dance here it might be considered bashing. But in this specific case, it is a number of capable and respected rifle shooters at the top of the game agreeing with my assessment. This is considered opinion from folks who know of what they speak, not armchair racers.

I have yet to personally see a number of the strongest voices here speaking against valid product criticism attending any USPSA 3gun nats, or major IMG rules 3gun event in the past 4-5 years, if ever. I have been to most 3gun majors at one time, or another and go to them all as often as possible. Some of you I have met and even shot side by side with at various 3gun majors over the past several decades, some not. Not all of the voices here seem to be heavily involved in using long guns at a high level of capability in valid competition. Among us, we all know who does and who does not do this type of shootin' well.

Once again, this is not a bad product, just a new one that may not be quite ready for the first row on the starting grid in IPSC/USPSA competition. This ain't bashing, it's an informed initial assessment based on experience garnered in way more than tens of years across more than one person with knowledge about this kind of stuff.

BTW, once ANY discussion on a specific piece of hardware gets started, it's all's fair in love and war, until someone loses an eye that is. No one has lost an eye and only the 556 has taken any hits and none un-deserving. I say discussion is good when experienced and informed parties have things to say. Again, I stand by my hands-off assessment of the 556 for competition usage because it is based on specific facts that are well known about this rifle. One Piece BBl/Fore End, Large sight to bbl centerline offset and high weight factor. Nothing more was slammed by moi and it most certainly was NOT deemed unsuitable for real world useage.

BTW, ask me to run down my gripe list about my prized JP open rifle. I have one and the items on it are all valid things that I don't think should be hidden. A number of them have been addressed by later model parts and tweaks, some not yet. It is still a superior platform even with some flaws. Nothing is perfect, finding out why it is not is the thing!

[kurtm]

EricW has a good point, all that was asked was is it available... yes to L.E, I don't know about the commercial market. (note L.E ARE civilians!!)

I did spend some time with it and I think I save a local department a lot of money, but that wasn't asked either.

Both Eric and Cactus make a valid point, except when someone is on the fence for a $1500.00 purchase some of the critiques should perhapse be known to give a balanced view. Many of the contributers to this forum have been playing with "guns" for a long time and after a while a person has an intrinsic feel for what works and what doesn't. Unfortunatly MANY new guns are designed by commity and have many features that are down right detrimental to useage, should we all be mum on these points untill the error is noted and then chim in with " well I saw that right off"??

Just to be clear on my read of this system.. The very best I could shoot this thing was about 85% of my J.P. iron sight rifle, and that ain't winning!! I can actually shoot a stock M1A faster and more accurately than this 556 in .223 and yes I have tried it. I will say NOT ONCE did the 556 malfunction, it ran all day! It is a well made, robust reliable carbine and I would use it in a heart beat for it's intended roll, but many other things work just as well! KURTM

[EricW]

BTW, once ANY discussion on a specific piece of hardware gets started, it's all's fair in love and war, until someone loses an eye that is.

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to Glocktalk.

Edited December 12, 2006 by EricW

[smokshwn]

If we are going to complain about the trash talk then how about all the people posting off topic in a three gun thread when they admittedly don't shoot three gun ?????

As far as the 556 is concerned I got to play with one a little. I handled it off and on during a training day and shot about fifity rounds through it. It is very much as described. It is heavier than it has to be and very ergonimically unfriendly. It is no doubt a well made rifle. However there seems to be little option to improve on its faults and at the price point that it will be sold to the "commercial" (that's for you Kurt) market I would be hesitant to spend that kind of money.

Edited December 12, 2006 by smokshwn

[kellyn]

Nobody asked if it was any good. Nobody asked if it was a race gun. They just wanted to know if was available yet. There was absolutely no indication given of why they wished to purchase the Sig rifle. The ensuing posts about how the Sig was no good and unworthy of IPSC competition weren't solicited and needn't be offered.

Then don't mention the product in the 3 gun forums since it is filled with supergeniuses who like to comment on stuff. Since this is a competitive shooting forum, mentioning a product is going to result in people's evaluations of the product as a race gun. I have no problem with anyone critiquing a product when someone else brings it up. That's the whole point of the forums.

To be honest, if I could steer a newer shooter who was considering buying a SIG 556 as his competition rifle towards an AR, I have done a good deed for the day.

[George]

After re-reading this thread, I have to say that there has been no "trash talk" like you would find at "GT" or anyplace less well moderated.

I fail to find anything in this thread that isn't politely deliverd short of my "who cares" statement. All the rest of the actual comments on the product itself (both pro and con) have been carefully reasoned statements. Only feathers ruffled seem to be over propriety rather than fact. I find the commentary regarding the "slamming genuine product commentary" to be more like "GT" than the product commentary itself ;-)

[Cactustactical]

Ok, it seems that the accepted strategy for the evaluation of "new" products is that they perform ready to go out of the box.

Seems like a double standard that is not being applied to products that currently exist in the marketplace. How many rifles are sold from Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, Stag, JT or whomever else and the first thing that is done is to start swapping parts, pull out the trusty Dremel or send it off to the favored gunsmith for tweaking? Why are new products not given the same consideration? I really don't understand the double standard.

The JP rifles are probably the only rifles that are not tweaked on a regular basis and I don't doubt that there are people who tweak those also. How many generations of JP's were created before they were as they are today?

Someone will probably come back and say that he shoots his Bushmaster or Colt rifle right out of the box. Great, I am happy for you , you have saved quite a bit of money, but you aren't in the majority or even close to it. Otherwise, why would there be so many gunsmiths and aftermarket accessories available?

As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight, so am going to wander off and continue to be bemused at human nature.

On the Glocktalk analogy, I don't think we're quite there yet. It can be much worse there, but I do think the tone was set with George's derisive answer of "anyone care?". That is really what caught my attention and brought me to defend a new innovative product that deserves a closer look.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Cactustactical

[Wakal]

Ya can't fix stupid, says Ron White.

Nor can a rototool fix a huge bore offset.

When a good chunk of the top 3-gun shooters say the same thing, I tend to listen. When, as already noticed, folks who do...not...shoot 3-gun at the top level comment, I read with a much more skeptical eye.

$1,200 is rather salty for a gun that doesn't do what I want it to do, which is 3-Gun. I have a M4A1 issued to me for serious work. Since this is a 3-Gun forum...

Alex

[syme71]

My intent on posting the question on this forum was to solicit opinions on it's use for three gun. I guess I'll have to be more clear in my questions. Being a relative newbie, i.e. never shot a three gun match yet, I found the George's "bashing" opinions very helpful. I leave it to the reader to be mature enough to process postings as either ignorant comments or valid viewpoints.

BTW, it's a moot point for me. 556 is not available to NJ civilians.

[George]

To be honest, if I could steer a newer shooter who was considering buying a SIG 556 as his competition rifle towards an AR, I have done a good deed for the day.

Hey Kelly! It looks like you got your wish ;-)

Glad to have been of any help here whatsoever, syme71.

Thanks for puttin' up with all the static this has generated.

My flip comment up front seems to hath wrought some much needed discussion upon said product.

Kurt is dead on the money about a real race driver/rider only needing to look at a few key specs to pretty much know what they are gonna' be in for at 120+ in the sweepers ;-)

[ArizSig]

I'm only baggin' on the 556 because of it's weight, one piece bbl/fore end and very large POI to POA offset at CQ distance due to it's bbl being an inch lower from the sight rail than an AR bbl is.

These things are readily apparent and not needing hands on to know the mettle of.

Help me understand the repeated comments about the POI vs POA offset. I admit that I haven't handled one in person yet, but from the pictures of the production model (not the SHOT show prototype with the raised rail) the rail is right down on top of the receiver. The height of the rail vs bore appears to be only the gas tube. I can't imagine that this is anymore than the 2.25" offset the AR has.

I won't speculate on the applicability of this rifle for 3-gun use. I've been know to use totally impractical rifles (M1 Garand, HK91) just for the fun of running a match with them.

[George]

This rifle sports almost an inch more POI to POA than the AR!

[ArizSig]

This rifle sports almost an inch more POI to POA than the AR!

So it has an offset of 3.25"? Is that documented anywhere? It just doesn't look like it is that much. I imagine it would depend on what optics or sights you mounted and how high they are (med rings vs x-high rings). I guess I'll have to check it out when they are more widely available.

[Wakal]

You are confusing normal sight height with the distance between the center of the bore and the minimum sight height.

The AR pattern has a thin gas tube mounted over the barrel; any sights go over that. The SiG has a much larger gas assembly, driving the optics higher over the actual bore axis. Same as a AK pattern, or CETME/CETME knock-off (like the ones H&K makes ).

The SiG is a trick looking gun, and I'd like to have one in the collection "just because",. but...not for a game gun.

A

[George]

The operating rod on the Sig is where the bbl is on an AR. The Sig bbl is BELOW that, end of story!

[Mike P]

My intent on posting the question on this forum was to solicit opinions on it's use for three gun. I guess I'll have to be more clear in my questions. Being a relative newbie, i.e. never shot a three gun match yet, I found the George's "bashing" opinions very helpful. I leave it to the reader to be mature enough to process postings as either ignorant comments or valid viewpoints.

BTW, it's a moot point for me. 556 is not available to NJ civilians.

Gee, does that mean NJ law enforcement officers can't have access to the .223 either?