Simple Production Division Pistol Rules

[Nerves]

I hate to add to the debate, but as a new IPSC/USPSA shooter, why is the Sig X-Five (9mm & .40 cal) Banned from production? I know that thier classified as SA, but some of the Triggers on Glocks and XD's are Striker SA (feel).

[Loves2Shoot]

I hate to add to the debate, but as a new IPSC/USPSA shooter, why is the Sig X-Five (9mm & .40 cal) Banned from production? I know that thier classified as SA, but some of the Triggers on Glocks and XD's are Striker SA (feel).

To keep the 1911's out.. open that door and your would have heck to deal with. I don't think they would make the quantity sold part either at 2k+, but that is just a guess.

[ysued]

I hate to add to the debate, but as a new IPSC/USPSA shooter, why is the Sig X-Five (9mm & .40 cal) Banned from production? I know that thier classified as SA, but some of the Triggers on Glocks and XD's are Striker SA (feel).

The X5 All-Round is not banned from PD, only the Single Action ones are!!

NO Single Actions in PD, Period.

[Singlestack Wonder]

After much consideration, I've decided to modify Rule #4 in regards to DA only triggers. I agree that while the XD's mechanism works in a single action fashion, the trigger must be moved a distance typical of a DA pistol to fire a shot.

Revised Rule #4

4. Pistols must be of a type requiring the trigger to be moved at least .5" on first shot before striker or firing pin is released.

This would allow XD's or other similar pistols to compete as they should be. Again, said actions may not be modified to remove pre-travel to a point less than the factory specification.

[Jim Norman]

Just a thought,

Is any division in USPSA really a "Beginners" division? Think about it. Anyone considering USPSA should be thoroughly familiar with shooting. 100% familiar with his firearm and at least somewhat open to being taught.

Sadly, we do have people show up with their brand new, not yet out of the box bullet launcher and expect to shoot with us. We instruc them and then run them through the live fire safety check as well as a 4 stage practice match, (assuming they pass the live fire check). We have some peole that either have no idea how their particular firearm works and ohters that while they can figure out the gun already know everything, so nothing we say is heard.

Neither type is a suitable candidate for USPSA shooting.

All of our divisions require a thorough knowledge of shooting and of your gun. They do not require that you be able to shoot fast or accurately, only safely.

Please come out and join us, if you really aren't sure of how your gun works, we will take time to teach you, but not at a match.

Jim

[Loves2Shoot]

After much consideration, I've decided to modify Rule #4 in regards to DA only triggers. I agree that while the XD's mechanism works in a single action fashion, the trigger must be moved a distance typical of a DA pistol to fire a shot.

Revised Rule #4

4. Pistols must be of a type requiring the trigger to be moved at least .5" on first shot before striker or firing pin is released.

This would allow XD's or other similar pistols to compete as they should be. Again, said actions may not be modified to remove pre-travel to a point less than the factory specification.

Why? Don't we want "better" guns to be available to the general public?

[ysued]

Why? Don't we want "better" guns to be available to the general public?

YES, we do want new guns available!! The more the better!!

But...

For Production Division, they must fit certain criteria!!

IMHO, the Glocks, XD's and M&P's fit that criteria within the Striker Fired guns.

Are we to "HAVE" to accept "ANY" gun that a manufacturer makes, just because, whether it meets our (USPSA) Criteria or not??

Out Rules are not broken, not at all!! Just a tad unclear and with minor loopholes, that if left open, migh just not be the best thing for the Division.

IMHO, changes, aditions and deletions to PD should not be made at a whim 15 times a year!!

They should be done every time the Rule Book is changed or modified!!

The only cahnge to be made to the Divisiion Rules is when a new gun meets it's manufacturing criteria and it's adopeted to the division!!

Otherwise, leave the damm rules alone until the BOD Meets for Rule Chages and updates!!

Edited November 6, 2006 by ysued

[GeorgeInNePa]

After much consideration, I've decided to modify Rule #4 in regards to DA only triggers. I agree that while the XD's mechanism works in a single action fashion, the trigger must be moved a distance typical of a DA pistol to fire a shot.

Revised Rule #4

4. Pistols must be of a type requiring the trigger to be moved at least .5" on first shot before striker or firing pin is released.

This would allow XD's or other similar pistols to compete as they should be. Again, said actions may not be modified to remove pre-travel to a point less than the factory specification.

Who will check this? When?

What measuring device will be used? Will it be calibrated? By who? How often?

Is the .5" Measured from the front of the trigger or the rear? Does it include any part of the trigger that is movable, eg. Glock safety, or just the main trigger?

What will the tolerance be? +/-.000"?

[ysued]

After much consideration, I've decided to modify Rule #4 in regards to DA only triggers. I agree that while the XD's mechanism works in a single action fashion, the trigger must be moved a distance typical of a DA pistol to fire a shot.

Revised Rule #4

4. Pistols must be of a type requiring the trigger to be moved at least .5" on first shot before striker or firing pin is released.

This would allow XD's or other similar pistols to compete as they should be. Again, said actions may not be modified to remove pre-travel to a point less than the factory specification.

Who will check this? When?

What measuring device will be used? Will it be calibrated? By who? How often?

Is the .5" Measured from the front of the trigger or the rear? Does it include any part of the trigger that is movable, eg. Glock safety, or just the main trigger?

What will the tolerance be? +/-.000"?

I was thinking about that too!!

That rule would be impossible to enforce!!

We are having problems with other parts of PD that are easily enforceable, this one would be a nightmare!!

Talk about "Subject to Interpretation", just as bad as the IDPA Holster rule about "Daylight between the Belt and the Holster"

Edited November 6, 2006 by ysued

[BritinUSA]

I think the committee needs only do this when a gun is submitted to the Production Division List. There should be no need to do this for every competitors gun.

Or have I misunderstood your question ?

I firmly beleive that if certain modifications are dis-allowed from PD then there must be some mechanism that allows every club in the country to enforce that restriction. If a level 1 club match cannot enforce that particular restriction then it is un-enforceable and should be removed from the restricted list.

[ysued]

I think the committee needs only do this when a gun is submitted to the Production Division List. There should be no need to do this for every competitors gun.

Or have I misunderstood your question ?

I firmly beleive that if certain modifications are dis-allowed from PD then there must be some mechanism that allows every club in the country to enforce that restriction. If a level 1 club match cannot enforce that particular restriction then it is un-enforceable and should be removed from the restricted list.

Stop it, you are making too much sense!!

[Loves2Shoot]

What about XD's? Probably one of the fastest selling new guns. They are even being adopted by PD's all over the country...

The thing I struggle with is that since you can get triggers on Glocks that are as good as single action triggers and we all know they won't kick Glocks out of production, why keep single actions (or XD's - which I doubt they will do as long as TGO is using one) out? It seems that DA are on the way out and striker fire is the future, so, what do you do?

Sometimes we create more problems than we solve with rules IMO.

ps. CZ and Sig are pretty dang sweet and SA after the first pull when done right. Hmmm.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[BBunin]

Just a thought,

Is any division in USPSA really a "Beginners" division? Think about it. Anyone considering USPSA should be thoroughly familiar with shooting. 100% familiar with his firearm and at least somewhat open to being taught.

Jim

Umm, Yes?

Jim, you're looking at it wrong.

It's not that it's a Beginners ONLY division. It's that it IS the division in which 90% of new USPSA shooters will begin.

[Nik Habicht]

Just a thought,

Is any division in USPSA really a "Beginners" division? Think about it. Anyone considering USPSA should be thoroughly familiar with shooting. 100% familiar with his firearm and at least somewhat open to being taught.

Jim

Umm, Yes?

Jim, you're looking at it wrong.

It's not that it's a Beginners ONLY division. It's that it IS the division in which 90% of new USPSA shooters will begin.

Hmmm, Jim's a match director --- in the same state as me. I know I'm not seeing 90% of new shooters beginning in Production --- and I don't think Old Bridge is either....

[ihatepickles]

I shoot Production. Production is not a beginner's division.

My experience is that most new shooters shoot limited. Not that it matters what division new shooters choose to shoot, because none of the USPSA divisions are beginner divisions.

[Singlestack Wonder]

The thing I struggle with is that since you can get triggers on Glocks that are as good as single action triggers and we all know they won't kick Glocks out of production, why keep single actions (or XD's - which I doubt they will do as long as TGO is using one) out? It seems that DA are on the way out and striker fire is the future, so, what do you do?

Exactly why I modified my Rule #4 to address minimum trigger travel on the first shot and eliminating the verbiage of "DA" only. This allows for pistols like the XD to play.

[ysued]

What about XD's? Probably one of the fastest selling new guns. They are even being adopted by PD's all over the country...

The thing I struggle with is that since you can get triggers on Glocks that are as good as single action triggers and we all know they won't kick Glocks out of production, why keep single actions (or XD's - which I doubt they will do as long as TGO is using one) out? It seems that DA are on the way out and striker fire is the future, so, what do you do?

Sometimes we create more problems than we solve with rules IMO.

ps. CZ and Sig are pretty dang sweet and SA after the first pull when done right. Hmmm.

If we didn't have Rules, we would be even worse thn we are now!!

Like I've said countless times, CLARIFICATION!!!

No major changes!! Plug Up the Loopholes!!

IPSC has done a fair job at Production Rules, so has IDPA!!

If you write rules right the first time and don't keep tweaking on them all year long, confusing everyone, things would be a whole lot better!!

BTW, I own an XD, an M&P with one more on the way and several Glocks, I really don't see a real or perceived advantage on the XD Trigger over the other 2 Striker fired platforms!!

The thing I struggle with is that since you can get triggers on Glocks that are as good as single action triggers and we all know they won't kick Glocks out of production, why keep single actions (or XD's - which I doubt they will do as long as TGO is using one) out? It seems that DA are on the way out and striker fire is the future, so, what do you do?

Exactly why I modified my Rule #4 to address minimum trigger travel on the first shot and eliminating the verbiage of "DA" only. This allows for pistols like the XD to play.

I do see what you mean, but it would be a burden to enforce!!

Y

Edited November 6, 2006 by ysued

[Loves2Shoot]

Ysued, so come on man, how do you really feel

I'm all for clarity, and I'm sure whatever happens I'l have a few guns for each division

I guess all of Rich and my XD triggers would be verbotten since the total travel is less than that (by half)

Oh, well most of the ones I do aren't for competitors, but LEO and regular folks.

Clarity and stability = good

[Singlestack Wonder]

I do see what you mean, but it would be a burden to enforce!!

OK. How about "Triggers must travel the full factory distance on the 1st shot". Just like in IDPA, we don't need any stinking measuring devices. One can look at and try a Glock, XD, or CZ trigger to see if it's travel has been modified. I'm not concerned if the travel is off by a 32nd of an inch, but if the Glock trigger only needs to be pulled 1/16" of an inch for the first shot, there is a problem. The point that most here need every single permutation and detail in a written form before they will accept the rule is an illustration of what's wrong with the rules and what creates the "range lawyer" environment.

[ysued]

Ysued, so come on man, how do you really feel

I'm all for clarity, and I'm sure whatever happens I'l have a few guns for each division

I guess all of Rich and my XD triggers would be verbotten since the total travel is less than that (by half)

Oh, well most of the ones I do aren't for competitors, but LEO and regular folks.

Clarity and stability = good

I'm all for crisp Triggers!!!

I just got an XD-40 Tactical and I do want to tweak that puppy!!

I just put Heinies on it today, then, the trigger job!!

I don't think that that Trigger Travel thing is set as a rule yes, heck, I don;t think the BOD has mande any decision about PD Rules yet!!

Y

[EricBudd]

I'm all for crisp Triggers!!!

I just got an XD-40 Tactical and I do want to tweak that puppy!!

I just put Heinies on it today, then, the trigger job!!

I don't think that that Trigger Travel thing is set as a rule yes, heck, I don;t think the BOD has mande any decision about PD Rules yet!!

Y

Tweak all you want, the gun just might not be production legal (in the future). It shouldn't matter though - there is always Limited-10 (maybe) and Limited. Everyone wants to make changes and still call their guns 'production' and I guess I understand that, but at a certain point a production guns stops being a production gun. I guess that where that point is why there are so many posts on this topic.

[ysued]

Don't bet me wrong, I'm one of the ones that want to restrict tweaking Production guns!!

If it was my choice, there would be no Milled Bomars!!

I'm against Triggers that completely chage the way the trigger works too!!

If we decide to leave Production as Factory Stock, Rules must be Firm, Concise and Direct!!

No more Loopholes!! PERIOD!!

Are folks going to get Pi$$ed??

YES!!

But we DO need A good Rules Clarification/Re-Write!!

I'm with you on the fact that there's Limited, Limited 10 and Open!!

I'm not going to shoot my XD-40 in Production anyway, it's a 40 and I'm a Wuz!!

That's what my M&P9 is for!! The only chage that has been done to it is the White Dots on the Sights have been covered with Epoxy.

I'll change the Sights for Warren Sights as soon as they become available.

I do agree with you too on the fact that when the gun is tweaked so much, it's no longer Production, I'm not for turning Production into a Limited DA/Striker minor Division.

I'm for PRODUCTION!!

I'm all for crisp Triggers!!!

I just got an XD-40 Tactical and I do want to tweak that puppy!!

I just put Heinies on it today, then, the trigger job!!

I don't think that that Trigger Travel thing is set as a rule yes, heck, I don;t think the BOD has mande any decision about PD Rules yet!!

Y

Tweak all you want, the gun just might not be production legal (in the future). It shouldn't matter though - there is always Limited-10 (maybe) and Limited. Everyone wants to make changes and still call their guns 'production' and I guess I understand that, but at a certain point a production guns stops being a production gun. I guess that where that point is why there are so many posts on this topic.

[Chuck Anderson]

I doubt it's possible to leave the decision of trigger travel up to the RO, or Chrono Guy. I've handled about 400 Glocks, most brand new, some a couple years old, LE duty guns that are box stock and high end competition Glocks. I doubt there is a single one that had the same trigger feel. They all feel a little different. Some even feel like the trigger travels a shorter distance than others. Don't know if they actually do or not, it just feels that way. And that's the problem. I'm not going to leave the outcome of my match, (Open or Production) in the hands of an RO or Chrono guy that only handles them for a brief time. I even got stopped by a Nationals RO to check the position of my holster after the LAMR command. It wasn't even close, he just didn't know the rules.

[ysued]

I doubt it's possible to leave the decision of trigger travel up to the RO, or Chrono Guy. I've handled about 400 Glocks, most brand new, some a couple years old, LE duty guns that are box stock and high end competition Glocks. I doubt there is a single one that had the same trigger feel. They all feel a little different. Some even feel like the trigger travels a shorter distance than others. Don't know if they actually do or not, it just feels that way. And that's the problem. I'm not going to leave the outcome of my match, (Open or Production) in the hands of an RO or Chrono guy that only handles them for a brief time. I even got stopped by a Nationals RO to check the position of my holster after the LAMR command. It wasn't even close, he just didn't know the rules.

I agree with your post 100%

I just replaced almost every part on my old 2nd Gen G19 last night, The only parts I left were the NY Trigger, Striker and Extractor, I replaced every other part with new Glock parts from Brownells. May point is that the trigger feel changed dramtically by replacing all these parts.

The Trigger now feels heavier, but crisper than before.

So..... trying to regulate trigger travel would be next to imposible, and like I said before, it would be waaaay to subjective.

Not worth it and it would make our rules even harder to enforce.

Y

[JFD]

I think triggers should be left alone in the rules besides being included in "no external mods".

Who is going to be checking guns and have the knowledge to say a trigger is now "different"?

If Production was in fact a stock gun division, then it might be necessary, but the tungsten guide rods, melted Bomars, aftermarket barrels, etc pretty much means this isn't a stock gun division.

For folks actually wanting a bone stock gun division, then I think you should give up on Production and start politicing for a new division. If a 1911 Only division can get in on provisional status, then you should be able to get a division that makes sense. At that point Production can evolve into a DA/Striker Limited 10, which seems to be a direction a lot of members would like.