Simple Production Division Pistol Rules

[GeorgeInNePa]

To play devil's advocate, while the idea of having supplied stock guns for each stage sounds good and seems to level the playing field, what about the person that really wants to be competive in this new division? Is it hard to imagine that people would go out and purchase one of each of the guns in order to be proficient? All of a sudden we have an arms race of a whole different sort! Suddenly the new person shows up and and has to shoot a whole group of guns they aren't familiar with against perhaps the top shooter that trains with one of each. I don't know if that is so far fetched. It would also be pretty costly for clubs and matches to run this division since at least one of each gun must be on hand.

An experienced shooter will ALWAYS beat an inexperiened shooter.

[Loves2Shoot]

My thinking is we need to have a division that addresses the "you need a $XXXX.XX racegun to shoot USPSA" comments that I constantly run into when trying to interest folks in shooting USPSA.

Wouldn't it just be easier to educate them that that line is completely false?

Edited November 9, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[smokshwn]

L2S,

+10

Way early in this thread I commented how there is a certain buyin to any hobby/sport.

[RIIID]

A way to enforce rules for all level of matches is what is needed, until that is created talking about new divisions and rules is just a complete waste of time.

Rich

[ysued]

A way to enforce rules for all level of matches is what is needed, until that is created talking about new divisions and rules is just a complete waste of time.

Rich

YES!!! AMEN Brother Rich.

Why aren't we enforcing 100% now??

But you have to admit, the PD Rules are so poorly written, have so many loopholes and are so subjectively interpreted that it has led us to where we are now, no enforcement!!

Y

[Irishlad]

Tough call, but if it were me, I'd reconcile the fact that it's a shooting sport that caters to people that enjoy shooting and probably will shoot a lot. At least, that's the intention and purpose of shooting organizations.

A lot of handguns, IMHO, are not really designed for volumes of comfortable and "easy" shooting. They are more than fine for probably 90% of their customers that probably won't shoot in a lifetime what a moderate "sport shooter" will shoot in a year or two. So, "minor" modification that make shooting more pleasant for the individual should be allowed. Some shooter's hands won't need any mods, others might need some rounding/filing here and there, some more traction, better sights(older eyes), etc. As long as it doesn't change the "nature" of the gun, i.e trying to make a non-SA handgun close to or the same as a gun that's not allowed in the division. Slicking up the trigger is different than changing the amount of trigger travel and reset...allow too much of that and you have to question why SA guns can't play.

Beginners should be able to buy a gun out of the gunshop and compete. As they progress, ie. shoot more, they can make minor mods that enhance their experence...or not!

Allowing "box-stock" guns only means, possibly, waiting for a manufacturer to come out with a "better" gun. Great...that means if I want a easier, more comfortable gun to shoot, I have to buy another one.

No point to make here...just some random thoughts.

[JFD]

QUOTE(JFD @ Nov 8 2006, 01:03 PM)

My thinking is we need to have a division that addresses the "you need a $XXXX.XX racegun to shoot USPSA" comments that I constantly run into when trying to interest folks in shooting USPSA.

Wouldn't it just be easier to educate them that that line is completely false?

I agree that education is just as good in this particular case, but at our local club I'm seriously outnumbered by IDPAers who spout this crap at anyone who will listen. It's really sad when half of them are former USPSA shooters who know better. Even if I could convince them at that moment, the next IDPA match will "reeducate" them.

USPSA, with it's promotional material covered in Open guns didn't help much either. I finally took all the USPSA material off the walls in our stat shack because IDPAers were using it to illustrate their point about high dollar guns. While I haven't been a MD for a couple of years, at that time USPSA appeared to only be interested in advertising the sport to current members. I've yet to see anyone starting competition from scratch show up with an Open gun or a custom Limited gun.

I'm hoping USPSA will jump on Dave's Limited Nats Glock win with a new annual issue of Front Sight that concentrates 90% on Production, Revolver, and L-10. A the same time I'll happily give them a pic of my Limited Para since the last annual issue could only manage a pic of a SS Springfield for Limited division (same one as L-10).

I try to look at USPSA as a business. At this point in time it is cheaper to get started in USPSA than at any time during the AWB. If we still aren't growing in these conditions, then we must be dying. We're going to be under democrat control for the next 10 years at least, so I don't see conditions getting any better.

Just thinking out loud.

[Kevin Kline]

I doubt it's possible to leave the decision of trigger travel up to the RO, or Chrono Guy. I've handled about 400 Glocks, most brand new, some a couple years old, LE duty guns that are box stock and high end competition Glocks. I doubt there is a single one that had the same trigger feel. They all feel a little different. Some even feel like the trigger travels a shorter distance than others. Don't know if they actually do or not, it just feels that way. And that's the problem. I'm not going to leave the outcome of my match, (Open or Production) in the hands of an RO or Chrono guy that only handles them for a brief time. I even got stopped by a Nationals RO to check the position of my holster after the LAMR command. It wasn't even close, he just didn't know the rules.

Chuck,

I saw that. It was on Stage 16 (4 long popper and 2 classic targets), right?

We had just finished for the day and figured I'd stop for a sec to watch. I saw Angus, Matt, Dave and others shoot it. I saw you LAMR and then the RO stopped you after you holstered and asked about your, was it mag pouch or holster position? I couldnt believe an RO did that when you were hot, mentally prepping, and about 4 seconds from the buzzer.

I thought maybe you'd unload and step off the line for sec, but kudos, you kept going. That was bad.

[BritinUSA]

...I saw you LAMR and then the RO stopped you after you holstered and asked about your, was it mag pouch or holster position? I couldnt believe an RO did that when you were hot, mentally prepping, and about 4 seconds from the buzzer.

A similar thing happened to me at Nationals a few years ago...

RO.. Load and Make Ready

RO.. Are you ready, standby

RO.. Is your belt going though belt loops ?

ME... Huh ?

[BBunin]

How about this?

We will never have a box stock division. BUT we could have an IROC Divison. What we would need is for Glock, Springfield, CZ, Smith & Wesson, Para and any others to supply a sufficent number of firearms so that at each stage, there was one gun per shooter, plus a couple back-up guns. Ammo would be supplied by the major ammo companies. Rigs could be problematci, so I would do this, All starts off the table, wear your own mag pouches. Guns are numbered, you draw a number and that is your number on the stage for which gun you use.

Everyone then competes on each stage with essentially the same gear.

Stage One: Para

Stage Two: Glock

and so on.

Just a thought. Separate the shooters form the equipment and see who wins. Everyone there has to shoot multiple platforms, not just what they are used to and comfortable with.

All guns sighted in off a ransom rest for group and point of aim. All guns in each group as close as is humanly possible in function. A failure of a particular gun will be grounds for a reshoot. IE., if your gun breaks and cannot fire the required shots, you get a reshoot, Squibs are included. Jams are not. It must be a mechanical failure.

Jim

Jim,

A great idea and I'd shoot a match like that in a heartbeat.

But a quick logistics question:

Holsters?

Mag pouches?

Speed loaders?

If it was provided, and it'd have to be, how much time would it take to swap the gear between shooters?