Idpa Nationals.

[Bruce Warren]

I was hoping to find a thread from those who attended the IDPA Nats. Can someone direct me to a place where I can find out how the match was and how the shooters did?

Thanks in advance.

Keep Shootin'

[Chills1994]

try this:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39701

julie goloski was nice enough to shoot video and post them to the web, that alone is worth going to that thread and clicking on her links.

I was all scheduled to go but had a work thing come up. I'm kicking myself for not going now. But I did kinda expect it (and Murphy's Law) to happen when I sent in the match application.

Doh!

You can also try the idpaforum.com website under match annoucemnts/ results section

[Crusher]

This is the first year that the scoring program has recorded specific penalties (No Shoots, Procedurals, FTDR) looks like 340 + PE’s handed out and a few of those went to some well known competitors.

That sounds like an awful lot of penalties but without any information (data) from previous IDPA nationals there is no way to compare this year’s data.

[Jane]

That sounds like an awful lot of penalties but without any information (data) from previous IDPA nationals there is no way to compare this year’s data.

There were 320+ shooters registered, plus the BUG stages (which had a few procedurals).

That averages out to a little more than 1 procedural per person during an 18-stage match...

[Crusher]

There were 320+ shooters registered, plus the BUG stages (which had a few procedurals).

That averages out to a little more than 1 procedural per person during an 18-stage match...

I only counted (rough count) of the actual match (no side match included in the total). As I said there is no other available data from previous years, but the assertion of 1 procedural per person estimate for an 18 stage match with 320 competitors is an acceptable number sounds a bit high even for an 18 stage 320 competitor match.

Having shot a few sanctioned matches over the years I have only recieved 1 PE for roughly 150 + stages shot in total.

The following comes from the IDPA rule book.

{ [pg 51 from IDPA rulebook]

Well-designed courses of fire should have the following

attributes:

• They should test skills relevant to self-defense situations.

• The sequence of target engagement should be obvious to the

shooter without extensive briefing or instruction.

• Assessment of procedural penalties because the shooter failed

to understand the course of fire should be very rare.

Procedural penalties will rarely be assessed on stages exhibiting

good course design.}

Being that this was the Nationals, I would assume that course design and stage proceedure was not the reason for 340 + procedural penalties given.

So what was?

Cover PE's?

[firewalker]

Keep in mind that the new rules were in force. If during the equiptment check when you first came on bay if, you had to adjust equiptment you score sheet was marked, The second time it was marked you earned a PE,

There is also brain fade, timer goes off mind goes blank..;o)

I worked a stage where the COF it was stated in walk thru what was a legal reload and where it must take place (behind hard cover) The hardest part was the reload cound not be initiated until completely behind hardcover, those that chose to sweep for mag before behind hardcover earned a PE.

But looked at in the larger picture . in 18 stages....firing out of order, brain fade,creeping,cover,illegal reload, extra rounds in limited count.ect......1 PE average per shooter dosent sound that high.

Ok i came back to edit. I worked the 2006 nationals. I dont think that any PEs were handed out....We went out of our way to avoid them.....THEY WERE EARNED.....we simply awarded them to you.

Frederick Haring

Edited September 28, 2006 by firewalker

[Overhung]

I shot the IDPA nationals and did awe-full. I ranked third from the bottom in my class. CDP-EX. I was bad, icky, stinky, gross bad. Waste of $400 bad.

That said the match was a good match, weather will play a part in everyone;s eval, I shot in the rain both days. The SOs were excellent, professional, and good guys. I think they were forced to work some stages that conflicted with the concepts of a good stage. Procedurals were handed out to enforce the stage choreography and NOT to comply with IDPA rules.

The stage Mr Fred describes, one had to neutralize a bunch of targets- effectively clearing the room, advance to an opening an engage two more.

The COF said you could not reload unless you were against the wall- where the door to the next string was. It did not matter that the entire room was clear and there was a wall between you and the bad guys. People earned their procedurals on a bad stage. That being said, fred and some other guys tried to be fair. When the SRO apologizes for the stage, it is bad.

On the whole, the stages were more challenging last year, but this year had a better flow.

Dan in NOLA

[Crusher]

When the SRO apologizes for the stage, it is bad.

Yep I would say that's a good indication of a bogus stage.

[Jane]

but without any information (data) from previous IDPA nationals there is no way to compare this year’s data.

Actually, there is information.

For 2005, scroll down to the bottom of this page.. 254 procedurals... 289 shooters.

For 2004... 279 procedurals for 328 shooters.

For 2003... 283 procedurals for 311 shooters.

So yes, this year's percentage is higher, but only slightly.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Jane

[Crusher]

Thanks Jane that puts a much better perspective on the PE's as listed in your scoring program.

[Jane]

BTW... You'll notice a certain CDP/SS named Dru Nichols racked up 8 procedurals...

The woman shot the entire match on crutches and with a knee brace (karate accident a couple of weeks back), so just took a procedural on each stage that required the shooter to take a knee...

[Greg Jones]

Keep in mind that the new rules were in force.

The rules have been in effect for nearly 18 months now-don't know how "new" they would be to someone shooting at the Nationals (which used the same rules in 2005).

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

BTW... You'll notice a certain CDP/SS named Dru Nichols racked up 8 procedurals...

The woman shot the entire match on crutches and with a knee brace (karate accident a couple of weeks back), so just took a procedural on each stage that required the shooter to take a knee...

That is my kind of shooter. Congrats to her.

[Singlestack Wonder]

Keep in mind that the new rules were in force.

The rules have been in effect for nearly 18 months now-don't know how "new" they would be to someone shooting at the Nationals (which used the same rules in 2005).

+1

[Baer_steve]

I shot the IDPA nationals and did awe-full. I ranked third from the bottom in my class. CDP-EX. I was bad, icky, stinky, gross bad. Waste of $400 bad.

That said the match was a good match, weather will play a part in everyone;s eval, I shot in the rain both days. The SOs were excellent, professional, and good guys. I think they were forced to work some stages that conflicted with the concepts of a good stage. Procedurals were handed out to enforce the stage choreography and NOT to comply with IDPA rules.

The stage Mr Fred describes, one had to neutralize a bunch of targets- effectively clearing the room, advance to an opening an engage two more.

The COF said you could not reload unless you were against the wall- where the door to the next string was. It did not matter that the entire room was clear and there was a wall between you and the bad guys. People earned their procedurals on a bad stage. That being said, fred and some other guys tried to be fair. When the SRO apologizes for the stage, it is bad.

On the whole, the stages were more challenging last year, but this year had a better flow.

Dan in NOLA

Yep

Nationals let us down on this year's stage designs and I agree with the earlier statements that proceedurals for the most part were issue to enforce and cover for poor stages.

[aclundwall]

I never thought I could see so many variations of the point-blank 1-1-2-1-1 stage. We did it once kneeling freestyle. Then the same thing kneeling weak hand. Then the same thing standing, but the gun in the IDPA box. Then, weakhand with the gun on TOP of the idpa box. Then sitting on a four wheeler (oh, wait, that was completely different, it was FOUR targets, not three). Then while you were standing behind a bar. Wait... from behind the bar it was three to the body, left to right, then one to the head, (again)left to right.... then another one while you were holding bags of garbage...

It seemed to me that in an effort to get away from on-the-clock tac reloads, they wound up with way too many short, multi-string, no movement stages. Yuck.

What did the tac load do to fall out of favor, anyway? Did they start using it in USPSA and not tell me? Seems just a couple years ago, it was like the most important skill you could have. We even had two types. Now, it's the ugly stepchild, spurned and avoided like the plague... There was one required tac load in 18 stages, and that was on the national standards. Just seems odd to me....

Art

[Gregg K]

There was one required tac load in 18 stages, and that was on the national standards. Just seems odd to me....

Art

Stage 4 bay 6 had another mandatory tac-lod/reload with retention at the back of the car.

I want all reloads on the clock; reloads are a gun handling skill that is necessary and should be tested. I don't know of any defensive situations that give you a time out to get your gun ready to fight. If IDPA is going to pretend to test defensive skills, lets test them all.

[aclundwall]

Ahh, yes, you're right. There was another one. The one with the swinger. I kind of liked that stage. The one next to it, with the car on it's side though.... Seems like I just kept leaning. And leaning. And leaning......

Still though, it seems they went to almost ridiculous lengths to shorten the stages, rather than build in a tac load. And I agree... all reloads should be on the clock. If it's such an important skill (knowing how to reload while retaining unused ammo), then why banish it such that no one benefits from practicing it?

Art

Edited September 29, 2006 by aclundwall

[FTDR]

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

[Gregg K]

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

No real issue with the COF's, I just hate to see skills that I have practiced go to being off the clock. I look at the gun handling skills as an opportunity to get ahead of the competition.

One string had you start holding a case and some keys. At the signal drop the case and keys, advance and shoot 3 on one target and 3 on another then reload off the clock before the next string. Kind of hard to gain any ground on anyone with such a short string with the reload off the clock. We are only talking a 3 second string.

I had a good time even in the mud. I just like a little longer strings with the reloading skills kept on the clock. At least when we shot in the rain and mud, we got to go clean up after a half day. The poor SO's had to keep it going all day. They earned their keep on this one.

[Mayonaise]

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

You know. I've heard that same statement at sanctioned matches on stages that were clearly contrary to the rules. And not just from the SO but from two AC's at the match.

It's a bogus statement and is usually used as an excuse for a poorly designed COF.

Just sayin'.

[aclundwall]

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

Well, my issue is that they're boring COFs. Nationals is a big deal. By the time you enter, pay for travel, lodging, expenses, you're into it several hundred bucks or more. Plus, most people have to take at least one day off, and most probably take more than that. So, when 5 of 18 stages are nearly identical courses of fire, I feel a little gypped. Look, this club has hosted the nationals several times. They have plenty of room for more intricate stages. And, they've had a year to plan. I think that they could have come up with a few more interesting stages.

In some of the strings, they dumbed it down so much that they even went so far as to tell you where to point your weapon before the buzzer! They painted a red dot on a wall, and you started the string with your weapon pointed at the dot. Now, I can understand starting a weak hand only stage at low ready. But, these were freestyle stages...

It wasn't all bad. There were some stages that were OK. But overall, I felt it was kind of boring.

[FTDR]

so what you guys are saying is that the nationals was a farce, and that it would have been acceptable if each course of fire was designed around your personal practice

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

so when my above statement is spoken by a SO or MD it is false, in fact a cover up for a lousy match, so if at anytime it is spoken at a match the match must be deemed a failure?

Sounds to me like the only statement made to cover something up is a complaint about the entire match COF’S, and how it was not designed to suit a few competitors, a statement made to cover up lousy shooting, and sounds like someone needs to widen their practice format just a bit, I wonder how many people that trophied in there class and division has similar complaints

If a match was draw and fire one target, made up of 20 stages doing the same, the match would only be boring, but would still be a test of every competitors skills that day, and would be equal for all, while drawing and firing one shot may not be everyone’s “best” skill, not everyone is diversified in practice at every single movement done at a match, and you will most defiantly find someone’s weak point of shooting at a match, so almost any match is damned if you do damned if you don’t

I hope you guys at least enjoyed part of the time spent there

[Greg Jones]

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

You know. I've heard that same statement at sanctioned matches on stages that were clearly contrary to the rules. And not just from the SO but from two AC's at the match.

It's a bogus statement and is usually used as an excuse for a poorly designed COF.

Just sayin'.

+1

The rule book even addresses this specifically on page 51: "One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course design is 'Well, it is the same for everyone'... Claiming that it will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor stage or course of fire."

I don't know if the National stages were poorly designed or not-I wasn't there. However, I agree 100% that just because a stage is the same for everyone, doesn't make it right.

[marinegrunt]

so what you guys are saying is that the nationals was a farce, and that it would have been acceptable if each course of fire was designed around your personal practice

as long as every competitor had to do the same thing, i do not understand why anyone would have an issue with the cof's

so when my above statement is spoken by a SO or MD it is false, in fact a cover up for a lousy match, so if at anytime it is spoken at a match the match must be deemed a failure?

Sounds to me like the only statement made to cover something up is a complaint about the entire match COF’S, and how it was not designed to suit a few competitors, a statement made to cover up lousy shooting, and sounds like someone needs to widen their practice format just a bit, I wonder how many people that trophied in there class and division has similar complaints

If a match was draw and fire one target, made up of 20 stages doing the same, the match would only be boring, but would still be a test of every competitors skills that day, and would be equal for all, while drawing and firing one shot may not be everyone’s “best” skill, not everyone is diversified in practice at every single movement done at a match, and you will most defiantly find someone’s weak point of shooting at a match, so almost any match is damned if you do damned if you don’t

I hope you guys at least enjoyed part of the time spent there

+1000

I shot the nationals in the mud and muck I enjoyed it very much. I did not get a trophy by 1.22 seconds but I loved the match. From a game point of view it was fun. From a realistic point of view, it had more realistic stages with just a few BG's. I have every intention of attending PA. (as a side note I would prefer that you all not badmouth PA for their Gun laws, as they will isssue CCW permits to out of state citizens and the legislature rejected gun bans this week) BTW I spent some time in the airport with Ted. I believe that he will be a great MD for next year.