45 recoil spring

[bonedaddy]

Man, I can really feel the love in this room;)

[John Thompson]

Don't forget that you have to use a lighter spring in a bull barrel gun than in a standard gun.  A friend of mine bought the STI Trojen in .40 and was having a LOT of failure to feed problems with the 16lb spring it came with.  It hasn't jammed again since he put in a 14lb. spring.  When the power factor went from 175 to 165. I lowered my .45 spring from 18.5 to 16 and my .40 from 16 to 14.  I use a 12lb to 12.5lb spring in my modified .40 and someone suggested that I lower it but when I slow fire I do not see the dot dipping from the 12lb spring.

[benos]

All shock buffs are not created equal, hardness wise. So bear this in mind when "tuning" your gun by observing shock buff destruction. In the ones I've tried, the red ones are really hard, Wilson's (blue) are in between, and the Comonoli black units are really soft. Depending on a host of factors, all of  which mentioned somewhere...., the myriad combinations of all the above may produce varied results, even if everything "appears" the same.

Duane,

I'd be interested to know the comparison between the 16 lb straight rate and the 16 lb variable, as measured, at "closed" and "open" positions on a Brownell's spring guage. (I left mine with Sandy Strayer the last time I was at the factory.) I wonder if they have any relationship (not spring denominations, but actual measurement wise). I say this because I have always preferred the lightest standard spring rate that I could use and have the gun feed ALL THE TIME. If the gun is eating shock buffs, it's probably a combination of the above, not the spring rate. In addition, the hammer spring has far more influence over retarding the slide's opening than the recoil spring. That's why I also run the lightest hammer spring (I think it's 15 lbs) I can use without missfires. (I run about a 12 lb spring in my .40, or whatever happens to be lying within arms reach when I decide to change it out - maybe once or twice a year.)

be

[GMyers]

Brian,

You stated that you use a very light mainspring to minimize the influence of the hammer on the slide opening.  Would you expand on the reasons for this.  Thanks!

[benos]

GM,

That's about it.  As the slide moves to the rear it must "cock" the hammer. The lighter the hammer spring, the easier the slide opens and the less the gun/slide "rises" in recoil.

A gun rises less with lighter springs because there is simply less resistance (to the slide's opening) offered by the springs. Think of it as if the slide didn't move to the rear at all - the entire force of the recoil would be transfered upward. (The gun moves upward because of the resistance provided by the shooter holding the gun.) By varying the springs in the gun you can "tune" the opening of the slide so just the act of the slide opening "absorbs" some of the rearward and upward forces we call recoil.

be

[Detlef]

like in a, uuuhhmm..., revolver? R U saying a revolver

*rises* more than a pistol shooting the same load? I know there's a gazillion other things that differ, but

frankly, I always liked the recoil behavior of my 625

better than my 45 Auto at the same PF. Everything

associated with *recoil* was over so quickly, while all the moving parts on the pistol seemed to hurt rather than help...

--Detlef

[benos]

Detlef,

I'm with you, I like the feel of the "flip only" recoil of the revolver. I was typing something about the springs soaking up some of the recoil but then I remembered who I was typing to and aborted.

be

[Detlef]

yeah, even *you* have to be careful here!

--Detlef

[GMyers]

SMoney,

I did a little testing Saturday with different recoil spring rates.  To begin, I installed a new hammer spring at 19#; a noticable difference when thumb cocking or racking the slide.  I then installed a 15# var. rate recoil spring.  I was using my partners Kimber GM with a factory hammer spring and 18.5# recoil spring as a control gun (18.5# is what I had been shooting).

At this point I began shooting 3 different loads to see what differences my partner and I could see/feel...

(All 185gr JHP; 5.2gr & 5.7gr HP-38 and 5.0gr Titegroup)

My shooting partner, somewhat subjectively, says the muzzle did in fact flip less compared to the same loads in the control gun.  I too, noticed a decrease in flip but it was not a huge change, but noticable non-the-less.  What did increase, subjectively, was the recoil felt in my hands.  Definetely a sharper jolt.  I my mind I felt this had to be; since there was less spring to absorb recoil is must go someplace.  That someplace being the frame and then my hands (nice to know that my 'gedanken' <hint... Albert Einstein> was subjectively correct).  Groups were quit good also (for me anyhow) but this may also be the effect of better seeing  and beginning to learning to call my shots.

I then went to a 14# var. rate recoil spring and at best saw and incremental improvement in muzzle flip and can't say any more perceived recoil to the hands (loads with the 5.0gr of Titegroup were by far the snappiest of the bunch).  At this point I will keep a close eye on the shock-buff, moving back to the 15# if necessary (good tip Duane).

Final analysis... I am getting the cart before the horse!  Yes I could tell a diffence but I am not yet a good enough shooter to be able to effectively use that diffence.  The biggest factor to my now improving shooting has been BE's book (and those on this forum).  HUGE strides from integrating Brian's philosophies verses the incremental mechanical increases.  I have now experienced this bit of missing information and can now let it go (maybe a revisit once I make Master).

Bonedaddy, don't you just love it when You are right! Thanks dude!

Now it's off to tweek my Titegroup load.  Does anyone have a chronograph I can barrow for a couple of days?

[bonedaddy]

Hey Thanks GM!   If I seem right to you, I can't help it, that makes me happy!  The felt recoil thing is very subjective isn't it?  The physics lessons can be  confusing too.   Some of the Great Ones like 'em sprung light, they definately know what they are doing and can tell the difference.      

  The wind blows hard and almost constantly around here.  So I know, if I can't shoot in the wind, I'm not much of a shooter.  But...... I still love the calm days. Thanks for sharing your experiments.  It's good to walk this road with you.

[GMyers]

BD, even though I am walking "the road well traveled", it can, at times, still be very hard to see for all of the "dust of inexperience" that I kick up!  I know, I will learn to quit kicking soon.

I may play a little more with a lighter hammer spring and go back up on the recoil spring.  Upon further reflection I think I may want to trade for a little less recoil in the hands for a bit more muzzle flip (personal preference).

This has been a very eye-opening and great learning opportunity for me, thanks everyone!

SMoney, thanks again for starting this thread!  I hope you got as much out of it as I did.

[benos]

#Moderation Mode

Moved here

[Duane Thomas]

"In my mind I felt this had to be; since there was less spring to absorb recoil it must go someplace."

It might be that, because you felt this had to be, you were imagining something that wasn't really there. The variable power recoil springs don't give you "less spring" or even less cushioning effect of the slide's travel. The number on the package is the amount of energy the spring stores at full compression. Thus a 15-pound straight rate spring and a 15-pound variable give you the same amount of protection from gun battering, it takes the same amount of energy to compress them fully. The difference is in how soon that rearward push begins to hit you full power. With the straight rate spring it begins as soon as you fire the gun, with the variable it begins light but builds to full power by the time the slide is all the way to the rear.

Your Titegroup load looks a bit hot to me. In the Laser Cast Reloading Manual, 4.7-gr. is book max with a 200-gr. LSWC. The 4.7-gr. charge weight gives an honest 850 fps for a 170 PF - with Major at 165 that's just about perfect. You might try dropping your powder charge to 4.7-gr. and see what that does to your level of recoil.

Also, there's no reason you can't decrease your hammer spring weight to 17 pounds with no ill effects and retain 100 percent ignition. I have a 17-pounder in my 1911 .45, which is also my carry gun, and if there was any question of positive ignition with that, you can bet I wouldn't be using it. If you try that, along with a more moderate (but still completely adequately) load of Titegroup, I think you'll see even more improvement in the amount of muzzle flip and perceived recoil.

Of the two powders you're using I prefer Titegroup. HP-38 is also known as W231. Hodgdon and Winchester both buy the exact same powder from the exact same subcontractor, they just put it in different canisters with different names - this according to Mike Daley at Hodgdon. That's why I always get a kick out of it when I see HP-38 and W231 listed separately in load manuals, with different load data. And let's not kid ourselves, HP-38/W231 is good stuff. I used it myself, exclusively, for over 10 years. But I switched to Titegroup. It seems to produce softer recoil and less noise, it's cleaner burning, and you can get the same velocity with a smaller powder charge.

[GMyers]

Duane, sorry if I implied that the 15# var. rate was less of a spring than a 15# standard.  My point of comparison was the 18.5# standard spring, which I had become accustom to over the past 750 rounds +/-.  This being the case, am I right that I get to absorb the 3.5# missing from ~any~ 15# spring compared to a 18.5# (real question).

I went with 5.0gr of TG based on a bottle listed max of 5.5gr with a 185gr JHP.  The bottle recommends starting 10% below the max and work up.  I sure am willing to try a  lighter load though!  Based on your experience, what do you feel 4.5gr TG with the 185gr JHP will get me (just ball park)?  I don't yet have a chrono so I am fishin' like a madman for anybody and everybody's load experience.

I can see using a 17# hammer spring should decrease my trigger break pressure and allow the slide to more easily start the hammer cocking process (less stress is a good thing right?).  Because of the additional decrease in resistance to slide motion is a 14# or 15# recoil spring still a pretty safe bet at 170PF (keeping a vigilante eye on the shock-buff) or should I work back to 15# or 16# as a compensation?  BTW, I do have a Wolff 17# on the way.

I think I am going to be much happier with the TG vs. the HP-38/W231.  The TG sure seemed to hold better groups!

Looking only for a ballpark answer; for a given bullet weight what kind of velocity difference will be seen between lead bullet and a jacketed bullet, as many other factors as possible being the same?

I am glad that BE re-arranged the forum topics, I was beginning to think this thread had run it's course even though I really wanted to ask exactly what you brought up.

Thanks for your time!

[Duane Thomas]

"This being the case, am I right that I get to absorb the 3.5# missing from ~any~ 15# spring compared to a 18.5# (real question)."

No, no, no, you're looking at it the wrong way 'round, dude. You get to NOT absorb the 3.5 pounds extra it takes to fully compress the 18.5-pound spring.

"Based on your experience, what do you feel 4.5gr TG with the 185gr JHP will get me (just ball park)?"

You know, I used to use 185s but I switched to 200s. You might consider doing the same. There's a reason almost everybody out there shooting a .45 in IPSC chooses the 200-gr. bullet weight. It works the best. With the 225s and 230s you get a slower recoil, if that makes any sense, but more muzzle flip. With the 185s, in order to make Major you've got to drive the bullet fast enough that the recoil gets a bit snappy. The 200s seem to give the best compromise of Major power factor with moderate velocities and therefore soft recoil.

"Because of the additional decrease in resistance to slide motion is a 14# or 15# recoil spring still a pretty safe bet at 170PF (keeping a vigilante eye on the shock-buff) or should I work back to 15# or 16# as a compensation?"

Well, every gun is a law unto itself. I personally found running a 14-pound recoil spring along with the 17-pound hammer spring beat the life out of the Shok Buff in about 100 rounds and went back up to 15 pounds. OTOH my Wilson gun cycles very smoothly. It's possible a gun with a less smooth slide action could run the lighter recoil spring just fine.

"BTW, I do have a Wolff 17# on the way."

Trust me, you'll thank me when it's in the gun. For one thing, it makes recocking the hammer during dry fire one HELL of a lot easier.

"TG sure seemed to hold better groups!"

Titegroup was originally designed to burn smoothly at reduced powder chargers, for things like minute charge weights in large revolver cartridges and such. Those exceptionally smooth burn characteritics seem to deliver superior accuracy.

"Looking only for a ballpark answer; for a given bullet weight what kind of velocity difference will be seen between lead bullet and a jacketed bullet, as many other factors as possible being the same?"

Boy, I don't really know the answer to the jacketed vs. lead question - but I'll bet someone out there in the Enosverse Group Mind can answer it!

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 10:51 am on Sep. 12, 2001)

[GMyers]

Thanks Duane!!!

I will definately put all of these ideas to task.  Again, thanks for sharing your experiences.  I know it will save me and many others a lot of time (and money) at getting closer to where you and the other high level shooters are.

BD, I still have not forgotten your input either!

[GMyers]

Duane,

I installed the #17 hammer spring in conjunction with the 15# var. rate recoil.  Your right... I love it.  I could see a sizable decrease in muzzle flip while doing a round of Bill Drills today.  For me, I think the spring issue can be put to bed.

I placed an order with Montana Gold for a couple thousand 200gr JFP.  I will get a 170PF load worked up with Titegroup and get to the business at hand... Shooting!!!  Thanks.

[Duane Thomas]

You go, dude!

[GMyers]

BTW, how many posts do I have to put up before I can quit "Gathering" acorns and become a Hunter???

[Singlestack]

Patience Grasshopper GMyers. The acorn you seek will only be found by not looking........

[GMyers]

Aaaahhhhhh, Master 'Stack... should not one seek by seeing, yet not think about what has been seen?

[Duane Thomas]

Well, it's been so long since I was a Gatherer....but if memory serves me correctly the answer is 50.

[GMyers]

Thanks SS & DT!

Now back to the Ruger Mark II that is torn apart on the workbench.  What a puzzle!

[Duane Thomas]

Seven more....Go! Go!

[Bill Schwab]

50 posts it is....my wife thought it was hilarious when I explained the whole hunter/gatherer thing to her.  I had to explain it all because I was tickled that I was now a hunter and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about...funny stuff.

Bill