ErikW Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Like Detlef, I'm amazed at all the questions and concerns about recoil springs. Not just herein Brian's forums, but in general. I thought the job of a recoil spring was to allow the slide to travel fully to the rear and eject the spent case, then strip a round from the magazine and return the slide to battery. A whole lot of people say they change springs so the second shot of their double-tap or pair groups with the first shot. I was always suspicious of that theory, but I decided to give it a try because I've been shooting a few high shots ever since I had my slide lightened on my Limited gun. In Bill Drills, I usually toss a C or two, or even a B, above the A zone when trying to go for ultimate speed (splits in the teens). I've been running a 12# in this gun (long dust cover, bull barrel, steel guide rod, full-profile slide milled around the disconnector rail, hard chromed, Kell-Lube) for a while. I've also shot 11# and 13# in it. I ran a 10# in it for the Steel Challenge with Minor ammo and kept it in for IPSC practice with 170 PF ammo. I couldn't see or feel any difference shooting with the 10# spring. Warp-speed shooting still tossed the occassional high shot. One Major 1.15" round failed to strip from the magazine and stalled against the feed ramp. (This gun never jams with Major 1.20" ammo. It has only several hundred 1.15" rounds through it.) I think 10# is borderline for this gun, a little weak to strip rounds from a stiff magazine. I put in the 11# spring and shot a match. Shooting, I didn't see or feel anything different and the gun ran fine. No excessively high or low shots. I'm leaving the 11# in for the Nationals. So that's two long/heavy Limited guns running 11#-13# springs for thousands of rounds, and then thousands more through one of those guns with a lightened slide and springs 10#-13#, and no appreciable difference but a single malfunction. (And it's not that I wouldn't notice a difference. I notice the lightened slide flipping more and moving faster than the heavy slide. I notice a difference in slide speed between 180 and 200gr bullets at the same power factor with the same powder. I notice a difference in recoil when I'm shooting lead or jacketed bullets of the same weight at the same power factor with the same powder.) Technical disclaimer: the manufacturer's (Wolff) listed spring rates were not verified. These are just the observations of a second-rate USPSA Limited Master. Your results may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Eric, "These are just the observations of a second-rate USPSA Limited Master. Your results may vary." You are doing yourself a diservice sir. They do not "give" away Master cards. There are Masters and then there is everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 SS, you are absolutely right! The M and ups are the creme-de-la-creme, whose feet should be kissed, the ground on which they walk should be worshiped etc asf.! Erik, when you say *I notice a difference in slide speed between 180 and 200gr bullets at the same power factor with the same powder* you are already way ahead of me. Just how do you determine *slide speed*?? I agree, 180s and 200s *feel different*, but to deduce a difference in slide speed from that seems, to say the least, a bit audacious?!? I would think the major difference is in powder quantity when you load for the same PF. And yes, the lighter bullet then has to leave the barrel faster, there's a bigger BANG and more flash. But why would the amount of momentum transferred to the slide (obviously some fraction of the 165 PF with which the bullet leaves the barrel) change? Not that I say it's not possible, I'd just like to establish that a) this really happens and so much that you can feel it. There is a whole community out there swearing that fast slides help their shooting, that they can *beat* the slide with their trigger finger otherwise, etc., and I still don't believe a word of it! Inquiring minds.... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 11, 2001 Author Share Posted September 11, 2001 Let me be more specific... I perceive the slide action is slower with 200gr bullets loaded to the same power factor as 180gr bullets. (And I perceived all the other things I said I "noticed.") My desire for slide action that doesn't feel sluggish has little to do with trigger reset time. I know my best split time ever recorded is two or three times slower than the gun's cycle time. I'll add this: I perceive a slower-cycling slide when I grip the gun incorrectly and my thumb rubs against the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 interesting observations. I have not conducted the systematic experimenting with .40 bullet weight that you did. But when I still shot .45, I tested 175s against 230s for both *feel* and against split times on the timer (a la how fast can I get the gun back on target). Back then, the 230s were the winner hands-down (the feel of a *pffffb* against a *BAAAAAAAAAAAANG!!*, and for Bill drills the split times were on average faster with the 230s). That was a while ago, though, and I remember being distracted by the loud report and ample smoke of the 175s. But the 180 vs. 200 discussion is probably a different one. I still would think that you just like the 180s better than the 200s, and that *slide speed* may have nothing to do with that preference! --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Detlef, I prefer 200's to 180's.My shooting was better then, I was keener and less burnt out, but I now the power factor's changed I shoot 180's. I retried 200's about 2 months ago and couldn't get rid of them quick enough. To me they actually kick harder and feel very sluggish. The sooner the shot has gone, the sooner the gun settles for the next shot, assuming that the speed is not too violent to disrupt your grip or require excess tension a la 155's at major. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Phil, I've never shot 155's at major. How are they? How do they cycle and kick? Someone told me at a major match that they loved them cause they were so fast, but then again, he is almost primarily an Open shooter and admitted he almost never shoots Limited. Erik, I agree with you that I can percieve the recoil difference in 180's compared to 200's. I have not tried a lightened slide yet so can't say there. Also from a Limited Masters viewpoint, I just like the consistency I get from the 200's. A little more recoil in the hand coming back at you, but the recoil seems a little more consistent for me. The front sight seems to recoil within the 11:00 to 1:00 position on a clock everytime. With the 180s, I used to get the occasional shot recoiling outside this range. I just like the pattern and consistentcy I get from them, makes them more predictable for me. I might try the 180's again though with the newer power factor. Although I don't get as much recoil back in my hand, I seem to get a faster cycling, but not as consistent EVERY SINGLE TIME. I also stick with the 11lb spring. Erik, I was thinking of building a second Limited gun with a normal Caspian slide (stirrup cuts) and the long wide dustcover. I currently shoot an STI Edge in 40, with the full profile slide and dustcover. What do you think, how is your slide lightened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted September 13, 2001 Share Posted September 13, 2001 Kevin, I tried the 155's after the swingers at Cebu. For me in what was then a light gun, short dustcover SV with a tungsten springco, recoil was too severe, just too snappy. I haven't tried them in my now tungsten laden beast, but I might soon. I know several Masters in Aussie are using them and of course Matt Burkett is reported to have used 150's to win the North American IPSC match last year. To reduce recoil I shortenned the rounds to about 1.135" to reduce the charge weight, but I got into trouble with stovepipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Phil, Stovepipes because it was cycling too fast and catching the empties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Kevin, stovepipe feeds, not ejections, i.e. rounds jammed against the top of the chamber, unable to turn the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 Phil, Common', you can't use the word "stovepipe" and really mean a feeding problem. You are only allowed to type the word stovepipe if the problem has something to do with an empty case not ejecting. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Sorry Brian and all, I'm having trouble with the lingo,or is it the accent? hope you know what I meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 I think it was just the accent. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted October 15, 2001 Share Posted October 15, 2001 Hi guys. Yes I did use a 150 grain Lead Free frangible bullet at last years Pan American match. Okay thoughts on the stuff here. Favorite set-up for a .40 165 PF IPSC gun. 180 grain bullet with Viht N-310 1.230 OAL - make sure gun and mags work with the long ammo 10-11 lb. verified spring .200 red shock buff Long wide SVI with a bull barrel - set up almost the same as Brian's gun. Greased with Brian's slide glide. LOTS. :-) ----------------------------------------- I don't like the 200's at the 165 factor. Seem to be moving just a little slower than I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 OAL was bugger for me till I got the right one. Now no problems, I don't thnk I'll ever move my dies, no more failure to feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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