Malak Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Just wondering if Lapua brass (or any other brand of brass) is worth the extra money over fresh winchester brass? I am building a new 308 and want to squeeze out all the accuracy that I can (of course). I have always used fresh winchester brass and was wondering if Lapua brass or any of the other more expensive brass makes much difference? I will be using pretty standard stuff: 168SMKs for the most part and 175SMKs for the really long shots. Varget and winchest primes. Don't have an exact load yet, but then again, the rifle is not done yet either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Nope! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I just bought 500 new WW brass cases for my MOR rifle at $12/100. The Lapua option was over twice that per hundred. I will be doing a slew of case prep no matter what brand I buy and after they are all gussied up, a quick weight sort will cull maybe 20% of the WW (by my past experience) for practice use. This leaves me 400 new cases that are just as good as the Lapua after the same level of case prep work. I would probably have only weight segregated 8-10% out if I had started with Lapua, but now I will end up with about 400 nice WW cases for half the price of about 450 Lapua cases after expending almost the same level of case prep work. That's my take anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malak Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 george, what criteria do you use to see if the brass will make the cut? I normally just open the bag and do all the case prepping that I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Weight, my friend. A 2-3 grain case weight difference is almost all in the internal volume. That is HUUUUGE in comparison to 1/10th of a grain powder charge variations and so on. After a decent level of case prep, 95% plus of possible accuracy can be had by using good components in weight segregated cases. I try for under a grain case weight difference. I know for a fact that weight segregating a batch of cases and doing little else except trimming to proper length will yield better results on the target face than a mondo level of case prep and no weight segregation will. Glen Zediker says it really well in his book "Handloading For Competition" when he says " If you aren't weighing cases, don't get snippy about charge weights". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanuk Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) I've used both Winchester and Lapua cases in a few .308's... the biggest 'problem' with the Winchester .308 brass is that it tends to run undersized. The case head at the web runs way small, down in the .463-.465 range, vs. .469-.470 for Lapua. That's a fair amount for it to have to swell out and fit to the chamber over the first couple firings. And yes, I've seen a gun w/ the magazine well blown to crap when a new (as in virgin) Winnie case gave out right there. Glad I wasn't holding the gun. The case walls on Winchester .308 brass tends to run fairly thin. Over all, the brass is tough/hard enough that it's not generally a problem (except in rare situations as above)... usually it's a bennie as you get some additional 'boiler room' in terms of case capacity. Winchester cases weigh (on average) around 156gr plus or minus a bit, Lapua cases more up in the 173-174gr range. The practical downside of the thin case walls manifests itself in the neck area... Winnie brass running in the 0.011-0.012" range, and Lapua in the 0.0135-0.014" range. Doesn't sound like much of a difference, but most .308 Win chambers are pretty sloppy in the neck area, even the match ones. Example: WTC95 (Warner Tool Company 95 Palma team) reamer is a common match chamber... and measures 0.340-.341 fired neck diameter. If you get one at the max end of SAAMI specs (I have in the past, factory Remington)... it can run as much as 0.346". Now you take cases that finish out w/ a loaded neck diameter of 0.330-0.331" (Winchester cases) and you need to size *under* that a bit to get decent neck tension... so 0.328 or so. Sizig 0.018" in one step *sucks*, and tends to induce a fair amount of neck runout. And yes, I have the various ticky tools to measure this and take various steps to reduce said runout. Best solution? Thicker brass, such as Lapua (loaded round diameter of ~0.335-0.336", necking down to about .334" using bushing dies) or believe it or not, Lee Collet dies, which seem to handle squarshing down the neck that much w/o causing as much runout. Haven't played w/ them in a Dillon yet though Lapua *generally* tends to come out of the box in better shape, w/o the dented necks and ragged case mouths I've seen in some Winchester .308 brass. Lapua... unless you are being *really* picky... you can probably load straight out of the box, literally. Winchester... probably better settle in for some work. The end result will probably shoot about the same... one costs $$$, the other... sweat equity, and an investment in some case prep tooling. The point of the above? There's nothing *really* wrong w/ Winchester .308 brass (makes dandy 6.5-08 cases!) and it shoots some damn tiny groups. If Lapua makes for smaller holes in the paper... I haven't seen it in my shooting. Just want to point out that sometimes, under certain circumstances... the cheaper solution can bite you. If you know about it and are prepared to deal with it... then it may be a non-issue. I've abuse my current batch of Winchester Palma brass enough that I'm going to have to start culling ones w/ loose primer pockets. Probably going to get all new brass this fall/winter. I've already got all the neck-turning tools I could want. Just gotta decide whether I want to go w/ Winchester or Lapua myself. Part of me leans towards the Lapua, but at $40-42/100... let's just say I'm one of those that is grateful the primer pockets stay tight on them as long as they do! George, where in the blazes did you find Win .308 cases for *$12* per 100?!? Lowest price I've found so far is about $20-something. Monte Edited August 25, 2006 by milanuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I shoot .270 for my MOR cartridge and they are always cheaper than .308. It kinda makes up for the extra bolt throw ;-) I spent for batch of 200 .270 Lapua when I first set the rifle up, but after I went through them and tried the WW with the same downrange result for the same effort at my end, I stayed WW. I always size, trim, chamfer and do the flash holes and primer pockets on any new case, Lapua, or WW before first firing. I feel new cases are not quite ready for prime time for many reasons. This makes them weigh out more accurately because all the swarf metal left from manufacturing inequities is not there anymore. Weigh before initial processing and the results will be more variable than after the first case prep pass. I found this true with Lapua, WW & Remington new brass in .270 and with WW and Lapua in .223. I gave Lapua a shot in .223 and now just heavily re-process 1x LC military for my high grade .223. BTW, I did notice the Lapua grew faster than the WW in .270. Made me feel they were thicker and weighed more because they were more ductile brass. Yes, I did notice the .270 Lapua's weighed quite a few grains more than the WW's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanuk Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Ah. Kind of nutty how they do their pricing some times. Win .243 is slightly *more* expensive than .308, go figure. Primer pockets I'm about done with... never seen results on target that warrant it, but I'm too chicken to just quit it outright! Flash holes on Lapua I'm of the opinion is about a waste of time... but almost mandatory on Winchester. One of these days (like when this Broughton 5C barrel on my Prone gun ever goes tits up, or I get around to building a dedicated MOR gun) I think I'm gonna go looking for a custom tight-necked reamer for Winchester brass... I know they exist. After having a 6mm BR 'no turn' w/ a .272" neck (.2705 loaded rounds) and no problems, and a .243 Win w/ .274" neck and .271" loaded rounds... I'm about done w/ this .340+ neck vs. .330 loaded round horse-crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 My feeling on flash hole reaming is it help's uniform the case interior volume. The primer pockets being uniformed also makes for a more consistent case weight (even though pocket uniforming doesn't effect case volume like reaming the flash holes will). I find these two steps help to provide a more uniform case. I also love the feel of primers seating in uniformed pockets. I have yet to find a case brand that doesn't give up a noticeable amount of metal when these operations are performed. This tells me there was excess metal there to start with ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malak Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 ... I also love the feel of primers seating in uniformed pockets.... Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Weigh before initial processing and the results will be more variable than after the first case prep pass. Amen. I actually tested this ( on accident ), the first batch of cases I sorted right out of the bag . When checked after prep , it was a waste of time . Trimming seemed to account for most of the variance. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Trimming seemed to account for most of the variance True, like 75%, but whats left is worth going for IMHO. I stole most of what I do from Zediker's reloading books and take his advice about only doing the level of case prep that makes "me" feel good ;-) Yeah, there is some voodoo here, mostly in making yourself comfortable, but most of the results are right there to be seen on the target face and thats what I try to limit myself to bothering about. If my rifle doesn't respond to a step, I may re-evaluate doing that step. If the step is too much trouble in my estimation for the downrange result, I may also re-evaluate. In the end I guess I wind up doing about 75-80% of the prep work the real finickers do. I am happy with my results and I guess that is what matters most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I use Lapua brass in a custom 6.5/284. In .223 and .308 I use WW brass and have not had a problem. But I rarely shoot over 200 yards. I would like to know if it really makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 If you are going to weigh the cases I think WW and REM cases can be just as accurate as Lapua and Hornady. If you aren't going to bother weighing the cases Lapua and Hornady will be more accurate. How much? Depends on the load, rifle, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I disagree about Lapua not needing weight segregation. Flyers are still to be found and eliminated, the pile is just a lot smaller for the extra bux you pay ;-) Well prepped and weight segregated WW, or Remington, or Federal cases will always be more consistent than un-prepped Lapua cases (sized and trimmed only). Well prepped and weight segregated WW, or Remington, or Federal cases are the absolute equal of well prepped and weight segregated Lapua brass in the long run. The only meaningful difference in the brass is in two areas. 1. The ductility and thickness (as mentioned earlier). 2. The amount of case prep needed to make it do the job right. The Lapuas just cost more because they require less prep to get to the point shooters really want them to be at than the other cases do. Once the right amount of work has been put into any case, it will give the exact same result on the target face. Some cases just take more work to get to that place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malak Posted August 26, 2006 Author Share Posted August 26, 2006 Geroge, whos book are you talking about? Zediker's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Yup! Good stuff to start in "The Competitive AR". The best stuff is in "Handloading For Competition". That plus every single thing I have learned everywhere else ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 George, Do you weight the cases before or after you seat the primers? How much can/do the weight of the primers factor into your case separation? How much tolerance do you give a case before it's culled out of the batch, +/- .5? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Cases are weight segregated after all the case prep is done and they are final cleaned, but prior to priming. The weight range I am looking for depends on the case I am sorting. I like to see less than a 1 grain range for .223 cases (+/- .5 max) and will go up to 1.5 grains (+/- .75) for a .270 case which weighs around 190 grains to start with. You can cull into several weight ranges and load as batches, but I got tired of tracking batches by weight range so I now cull into one batch only and all the outies just go for practice ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 You might want to call Don Golembieski at Kodiak Precision. I believe he is the technical rep for VV and Laupa. He has built a lot of custom loads for rifles he has built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malak Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 well, I order 500 piecese of winchester brass, and as expected, they came in plastic bags. Lot was sorta polished but looked like it was rattled around in bulk bags for awhile. Flash holes were full or burrs, primer pockets not uniform, necks are dented, neck mouths rough, etc. Well, after quite a few hours of prep work, I had 500 pieces of pretty good looking brass. Then I piggybacked 200 pieces of Lapua brass on a buddy's order and HOLY CR@P!!!! the difference was unbelievable. That was the sexiest looking brass I have ever seen. I measured the overall lengths, average case neck thickness, primer pocket depth, checked the flash holes, and generally examined one 100 piece box. I was hard pressed to find as much as a 0.001 difference any one piece. I must say that for the extra money (which is not that much), it seems at first glance the Lapua is worth the money, if not for accuracy, for the time saved in case prep. And with pre-annealed necks, I have a feeling that they will also last longer than winchester's. I will try and load two test batches as close as possible and see if there is any accuracy difference between the two types of brass: unpreped Lapua, and preped winchester, with all other factors being the same. I will weigh the entire lapua box of brass and calculate the standard deviation, then segragate the winchester brass to the same spread. Will follow up with that analysis later. but from first impression, it looks like you get your moneys worth with Lapua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I agree that WW's QC is loose lately. I just got 500 new WW cases in .270 and they show the same lack of uniformity and swarf in the flash holes you mention. Not at all like the batch of 500 I bought about 4 years ago. To that end I just bought 300 pieces of Remington new brass in .270 to test and I found it a lot better than WW for consistency at the initial looksee. Price was within pennies of WW and it is pretty nice looking stuff so far. I inspected 5 cases and the weight variance was similar to WW, but the cosmetics and tolerances were a bit better. Flash holes were centered and clean on all 5. I may just be moving to Remington brass for my MOR even though I have 500 new WW sitting there in the box! More later on how the Remmy stuff stacks up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Reading some archived info on benchrest.com last evening regarding precision reloading. From what I gleaned (from ONE article from a "champion" shooter) it appears that processed military brass is the only thing held in lower regard than Remington stuff... Question = Have you had good luck with the Remmy brass or is this your first time to use their rifle brass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I have used their pistol brass and it was good stuff, but this is the first time trying their rifle brass for precision work ( I have used RP 30.30 brass before, but who cares about 30.30 accuracy). I figured $35 for 300 cases to test was not a bad investment. So far it looks better than the WW stuff, but I will let you all know more after I process a batch and test it on a target face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 (edited) George harkening back to the bench shooting days, if you are to gleen everything you can from your match ammo and your particular rifle, you are correct...I do not think you can overdo case prep or have too much attention to details...the things we used to do were very similar to what you are doing now...segregate the cases by weight...all within one grain, trim to length, deburr the flash hole, uniform the flash pocket, neck turn the cases inside and out if needed, chamfer the neck cuts, and even chuck up the cases and true up the case heads....after that seating depth, consistent neck tension and using a specific projectile will provide improvement if the shooter and gun are capable.. Interesting reading...thanks.. Edited September 23, 2006 by tightloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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