Quick Comparison Ltd/l-10/ss Over 8 Majors

[boo radley]

I was idly curious about the impact of the new single-stack division on match participitation. My hypothethis was that some L10 shooters would switch to SS, when offered, so I could expect to see a decrease in L10 participation, in 2006. I also tracked Limited.

I just picked 8 major matches -- no real reason for these 8, except they seemed largely attended. <shrug>

Much to my surprise, for these 8 matches, anyway, there has been a small but significant *increase* in L10 participation, with the number of Limited shooters being essentially flat. Here's a snapshot. Not sure if any of this is meaningful, but kinda interesting on a Friday afternoon:

[Chuck D]

Interesting "non-scientific" data.

L10 is quite popular, even in areas of the country not effected by the AWB or the application of AWB like State laws.

Hopefully some are playing attention....

[MikeFoley]

The good news is that these matches showed 115 more entries than last year. That is 14 more shooters per match. No one, regardless of opinion on the divisions, can find fault with that.

[mscott]

Cool, maybe there are that many new folks coming out to play.

[Sestock]

Here is a local match/section tally for the year.

Western PA Section

1705 Entries over seven clubs for 2006

Limited 532 31.2%

Production 398 23.3%

Open 322 18.9%

Limited 10 280 16.4%

Single Stack 88 5.2%

Revolver 85 5.0%

The overall activity is up for this year, lots of new shooters and many IDPA crossovers.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Sestock

[boo radley]

This is actually pretty interesting stuff....

I looked at all the 8 Area matches from 2001->2006, inclusive, just now, and looked at attendance for Ltd, L10, Open, and Production. (Yes, I know, I should have included Revolver, but I didn't).

I don't have time right now to chart them, but a couple things stand out.

1) Production is King, in terms of growth. With a *single* exception (2005, Area7), it has seen remarkable growth each year since 2001, in the Area matches, where it was largely in the single digits.

Production: 2001 and either 2005/2006 (if applicable)

A1

12 / 43

A2

10 / X(?)

A3

X(?) / 40

A4

4 / 21

A5

9 / 53

A6

8 / 74

A7

6 / 55

A8

8 / 57

2) L10 *seems* to be the 2nd healthiest division, in the Area matches, in terms of overall growth....

3) IMO, there are some fluctuations, but most of the Area matches have shown decent growth over the last 5 or 6 years, but a lot of this growth is owing to Production and L10. Open hops around, up/down, up/down, and Limited is fairly stable (and flat).

If anyone is interested, I can put this data in a simple spreadsheet.

[HSMITH]

How many of the guys shooting L10 at majors are trying to get away from some of the big sharks in Limited? I have overheard conversations to that effect, but have no idea how many are doing it. I have talked to some others that shoot Limited most of the time and L10 in major matches due to a lower classification. I don't know what impact, if any, this has on L10 numbers overall but thought it might be interesting to add to the discussion,

[boo radley]

HSMITH -- I don't know that answer. I think you'd have to start looking at individuals.

Here's a complete breakdown by Area matches of participation from 2001->2006. I put "?" where I was uncertain of the figures, and an "X" where there isn't data, yet. There are probably some typos in there, but I think it's mostly accurate.

What's great, I think, is that 6 out of 8 Area Matches have had their highest attendence either this year or last, since 2001!

I hope it's ok to post this -- I don't have any particular agenda, other than I think it's interesting, and I want to see ALL divisions do well, and increase in size.

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Limited

L10

Open

Production

(I apologize for this being hard to read, but the 'tab' character isn't preserved, when I post).

Area1

111 64 89 69 103 102

47 39 49 40 46 64

122 92 69 89 71 86

12 12 21 21 27 43

----------------------------------------------------------------

292 207 228 219 247 295

Area2

157 156 172 143 ? X

21 28 45 37 ? X

162 158 157 135 ? X

10 11 16 24 ? X

--------------------------------------------------------------

350 353 390 339

Area3

? 67 81 72 75 X

? 26 27 46 37 X

? 58 87 75 68 X

? 10 27 29 40 X

--------------------------------------------------------------

161 222 222 220

Area4

104 118 84 102 98 X

14 25 22 19 14 X

123 91 96 114 104 X

4 7 11 15 21 X

--------------------------------------------------------------

245 241 213 250 237

Area5

81 88 83 66 83 X

21 43 53 36 53 X

103 77 64 75 73 X

9 19 33 39 53 X

--------------------------------------------------------------

214 227 233 216 262

Area6

133 145 102 95 139 128

21 29 39 43 36 53

119 101 116 97 115 93

8 19 27 37 67 74

----------------------------------------------------------------

281 294 284 272 357 348

Area7

72 67 68 55 66 80

25 24 27 38 53 42

58 72 49 62 90 83

6 16 26 23 42 55

----------------------------------------------------------------

161 179 170 178 251 260

Area8

99 ? 95 86 113 X

22 ? 44 55 46 X

97 ? 126 122 112 X

8 ? 28 46 57 X

---------------------------------------------------------------

226 293 309 328

Edited July 15, 2006 by boo radley

[Jim Norman]

I shoot:

Limited as an A

Limited-10 as an A

Open as a B with a C average

Production as a B with a B average

Revolver as a B with a D average

So, what do I shoot at major matches?

Genearlly Limited or Limited-10. How do I choose? Sometimes as simple as flipping a coin.

What will I shoot this year at the Nats?

Probably Limited and Production. Might flip a coin and wind up shooting Open.

Why do I do it this way. I like shooting all my guns. I like to see how I do against different people. Its fun to shoot different guns. I am not likely to ever be National Champion so I can shoot for fun. If I had a real chance of being a contender, I would pick two platforms, or one and that would be all I ever shot.

Jim

[Chriss Grube]

The only way to really determine if SS or L-10 is really pulling in new shooters or just regular guys screwing around in a new division is to look at the individuals. I see a few new faces but they seem to be shooting production. I have seen and actually heard guys state that they are shooting l-10 becaused they are classed lower and they have a better chance of winning. Easiest fix for that is one classifiction for everything or an open and an iron sighted for those inclined to whine.

[walangkatapat]

I for one won't be shooting the ss proposed division simply due to the fact neither one of my singlestacks aren't legal for that division.

[JFD]

I see a fair number of Limited shooters switch to Production or L-10, or both for a few months at a time. Perhaps staving off a bit of burnout?

Most seem to switch to L-10 first, since it's only a matter of downloading mags. Some are certainly avoiding the big dogs in Limited when they shoot major matches, but if I was an "M" class Limited shooter I don't know that I would want to know for a FACT I was going to lose to sponsored pro shooters in what otherwise is essentially a "hobby" sport. At least in golf, amateurs don't have to compete against pro golfers, yet can play against them in Pro-Ams. The pro golfers still make a fortune teaching amateurs, but don't get to take their money at matches. I'm only a lowly "B" class Limited shooter, so I'm unaffected, but if I was made king of USPSA I'd make a change to that situation immediately. Enough of that thread drift....

Our IDPA crossover shooters usually wind up in L-10 or Limited, with fewer than I would expect going to Production. The ones I've talked to wanted to get away from the IDPA equipment restrictions at USPSA matches and were normally shooting L-10. About half of those will stick extensions of their mags and give Limited a try.

It's rare to see a CDP crossover shooter. Most come with Glocks or XDs and are fairly new to both sports.

SS doesn't offer anything except equipment restrictions and poor mag capacity that L-10 doesn't already have covered. $24 CMC 10 round mags don't seem to be driving anyone away from L-10. The low mag capacity means USPSA is looking for the same type people who shoot Revolver, and we can all see that not many are that crazy SS will never see many more shooters than Revolver. Still.....next year will be the key year for SS. Everyone who wants one should have a gun built by then and can plan to shoot that division in majors. Perhaps it will be successful as the ultimate "hiding from the big dogs" division. In the 3rd year of the trial, USPSA should have a Limited/L-10/SS Nats to let each division stand on its own.

Nice to see L-10 is healthy enough to survive attacks by those who can't seem to grasp what is drawing folks to that division (racing on the cheap).

[Chuck D]

This "hiding" concept, although bantered about quite frequently, isn't that common. Yes, some will do it but most look to test their abilities where they'll find the greatest concentration of competition. L10, based upon the numbers provided has developed into a competitive Division that can and does stand on its own.

2007 will be the year in which we see whether SS does the same. What would have helped this effort would be for full Divisional status to have been granted from the get-go.

Edited July 15, 2006 by Chuck D