Legal Question

[G+16]

A close friend of mine recently died of cancer, I talked to his son at the showing the other night, and He said he already took the guns to his house, knowing that like his father I also collect guns. He asked if their were any Legal things he had to do to keep them? He has a separete room for them (He's planning on buying a safe) He has a carry permit (IND) and is a good bussiness man and father. And I never thought about it till then that my son will have the same question someday, (army officer), I told him he needs to get the entire collection appraced for value and get them insured as I did, homeowners will not cover the value of most gun collections. I couldn't think of any legal problems, he's the only child as my son is, can anyone see a problem with this??

thanks in advance for your input

mike

[AZ38super]

There are many variables involved here.

1) Was there a will, and if so then if they were listed as to where they go then this takes over.

2) Was he married and no will, then they become part of the estate and pproperty of the spouse to determine what happens to them.

3) No will, no spouse, then they become part of the estate and controlled by the state until all things are settled there.

This all varies by state and so on but he in fact could get in trouble for removing them before the estate is settled even if there is a will involved as it all becomes locked by the state until settled. But I am not a lawyer.

This is based on when my father passed away a little over a year ago and there was no will so everything went to the estate and my mother. Then she had control from there and at that point it does not matter if there are children as the spouse has full control.

This is why a will is important and one needs to plan ahead. We could never get my dad to put one together as to him it meant he had to admitt he was dying.

Thoughts and prayers to the family.

[Genghis]

The answer may depend on which state he's in. Any knowledgeable lawyer can give some general info, but there may be some quirks in the state law.

If you'll have your friend contact me, I'll talk to him by phone or e-mail without charging him.

[BigDave]

As far as insurance is concerned...

Most homeowners (HO) policies cap coverage for THEFT of firearms at $2500 per occurance (not per item, $2500 aggregate). For all other named perils (typically Fire, Lightning, Windstorm/Hail, Vandalism, Maliciousl Mischief, Water (not flood, sewer backup or sump pump failure), Vehicles are the common perils, most policies have 15-20 named perils for which coverage is provided for personal property) - the personal property coverage limits (80% of the value of the Coverage-A Building limit, typically) will apply. Here's an example:

Example 1

Home is robbed, firearms loss is $10,000.

Loss: $10,000

Ded $500

Subtotal $9500

Special Limit $2500

Pay - $2500

Example 2

Fire damages entire collection, $15000 value

Loss $15,000

Ded $500

Subtotal $14,500

Limit: $100,000

Pay - $14,500

Personal Articles/Inland Marine can be used to cover gun collections (Arms Care Plus from the NRA is an example), but each item covered must be listed, or shedualed, on the policy. These are typically all-peril policies, meaning that items are covered for anything that happens except those losses that are excluded (Flood, War, Wear/Tear are common exclusions).

[Genghis]

Good info, BigDave. I'll bet Merlin could tell us more about this, if he wouldn't get himself in trouble.

[Larry White]

BD and Merlin are both adjusters, I bet Daves info is pretty good.-----Larry

[Merlin Orr]

Big Dave is right on the money with his info and way further up the food chain than I in this business. Most people are caught unaware of "Special Limits" or "Exclusions" until something happens and they then get their education at great cost.

Most Homeowner Policy's have a relatively low limit for guns - as well as numerous other "classes" of property. EVERYONE should take a few minutes and actually read their insurance CONTRACT (policy.) It can be an eye opener as well as save you a lot of grief should some misfortune befall you and yours. It would also save those who represent the insurance company from being labeled as "the a_-hole who cheated me" due to your being ignorant of what your insurance contract really covers and what items it excludes or limits coverage.......

[BismarckC]

As to the legal issues ... follow the advice of AZ38Super and Ghenghis.

[BigDave]

+1 Merlin.

Contrary to popular belief, the language in the contract is pretty straight forward and easy to understand. Most HO policies are based off one one standard model. More often than not, it works like this:

Home - insured against anything that happens except what is excluded (e.g. all peril)

Personal Property - named peril (only covered against the losses that are named)

Like Merlin said, take a minute and read or ask questions. It is just part of being an informed consumer.

[Sean Gaines]

A close friend of mine recently died of cancer, I talked to his son at the showing the other night, and He said he already took the guns to his house, knowing that like his father I also collect guns. He asked if their were any Legal things he had to do to keep them? He has a separete room for them (He's planning on buying a safe) He has a carry permit (IND) and is a good bussiness man and father. And I never thought about it till then that my son will have the same question someday, (army officer), I told him he needs to get the entire collection appraced for value and get them insured as I did, homeowners will not cover the value of most gun collections. I couldn't think of any legal problems, he's the only child as my son is, can anyone see a problem with this??

thanks in advance for your input

mike

I am not a attorney, but know a litlle about the law, and probate matters. I guess enough to get me in trouble. there are rules regarding personal property, which vary from state to state. If your friend has a surviving wife, than she is entitled to everying, unless there was a will. If your friend was single, but had a child. The property would go to that child, unless will specifies otherwise. now if he has more than one child than it gets divided amongst the number of children, unless will specifies otherwise. Now if your friend did not have a will, you might look up "intestacy for your state" in a google search that might help you, look for an intestacy chart. If it is a big enough estate, I would get an attorney, because they can get nasty, especially when there is alot of money involved.

another thing to note, is if there is a will than it must get probated within a certain period of time or becomes null and void. In texas I believe its 2 years from time of death.

Hope this helps

PK

Edited July 14, 2006 by PAPER KILLER

[kimel]

If there are any class III toys in the pile that makes things a LOT more complicated. Be advised...

[warpspeed]

I'll be in that situation one day. It has already been discussed - My step mother is well aware of what happens to all the "sporting goods".

As far as insurance, i rececntly had to go through the firearms loss thing as a result of theft.

I found out all about the limits BD & Merlin spoke of. I did not get hurt but I could have. BD is right - be informed. BTW, my insurance co is Allstate and they were very fair in the end.

[G+16]

He was divorced years ago, No Class III firearms, (major pain), only child, he said the other day he got a copy of the will from his dad's house and he is the sole benif. he's 99 percent sure his dad is debt free, he's calling everyone his dad delt with over the years.

Genghis I gave him your message with phone number, and told him you could be very usefull for knowledge. He was already looking into firearm insurance through the NRA,

THANKS everyone for your usefull information.

mike

[tallgrass]

The insurance portion of this thread is interesting. What do most people do as a supplement to their homeowners insurance? Can anyone recommend an insurance company that has firearm insurance at a reasonable cost?

[Paul B]

Okay, this is going to be way boring for most, but should answer some questions. Homeowners forms are often similar, as mentioned previously, since they are usually copied from one of 2 major insurance industry organizations - ISO and AAIS. These organizations develop the forms and the companies adopt them.

The problem is that most every company makes exceptions to the standard forms and the normal consumer is probably not going to catch either the meaning of the original language or the exceptions. In my experience 99% of consumers do not read and/or understand the "insurance speak" in most policies, even if they are supposed to be plain language. You need an interpreter and sometimes you need the interpretation in writing so buyer beware.

Coverage for firearms in the Homeowners is limited, usually to $1000 to $2500 depending on the company but most companies offer what's known as a "Floater" or specific coverage for firearms. This can be either by schedule of firearms or on a "blanket" basis (each firearm does not have to be listed). The rates usually run from $.20 up to over $1.00 per $100 of values. The coverage, though, is usually all risk and can apply everywhere - even outside the US (you will have to check each policy). These may or may not have any deductible - the good ones don't.

In this area companies vary greatly and you might want to consult with an agent or an experienced adjuster to know exactly what is offered. Some "floater" policies will just give you the money if the gun is stolen others may try to replace it (from who knows where).

Another source for gun insurance is the NRA who gives away some coverage with membership and you can buy more. This may not be the broadest coverage, but it is somewhat convenient. There are also other markets like the NRA, but they may be more expensive.

One note of caution. When you ask your agent about the coverage do not be too pushy until you know the company's political approach to underwriting guns. Some do not like them because they think they create a liability problem. Yes, your Homeowners liability does cover you for shooting activities as long as the loss was not "intentional" but some may have a specific exclusion for shooting activities. This exclusion can show up mysteriously after you insure your guns. You can usually tell who does not like firearms by their rates. Ask for their rates for other sporting equipment like golf clubs and if the firearms rate is more than double then you have a potential problem.

My advice is go for the specific insurance with your company if your have more than $10,000 in guns. Less than that use the standard Homeowners and supplement it with something from the NRA. As is always the case you have to make your own decisions and review your own forms as each situation may be different.

[h4444]

You can get a ""rider" on your policy, it is essentially the language for any custom coverage. I added a rider for my firearms,,,,,for $10K in coverage for my equipment, it cost me $10.00 per year,,,,,pretty good deal. That was through Farm Bureau.