Match Vendor Areas or Tents

[Vince Pinto]

Do you guys think we should enforce our usual safety rules in the vendor's area?

By this, I mean should we:

1. Prohibit competitors from touching or drawing their guns from their holsters but allow them to pass their previously bagged or cased guns to vendors for repair or other services?

2. Allow competitor's to handle vendor's guns in the vendor area provided they don't point the gun at anybody?

or should we allow competitor's to do whatever they want in the vendor's area provided they don't handle loaded guns?

[EricW]

Vince,

I've got mixed feelings on it, but lean toward not regulating it and letting folks use common sense.  As long as ammunition is not openly available in the vendor areas, I think a reasonable amount of safety is there.  

E

[Flexmoney]

I think a vendor's tent at a USPSA/IPSC match would be much safer than the average gun shop.

[Steve Anderson]

The question is...

Is the vendor area still AT the match?

Can I be DQ'd for an action in the vendor area? Perhaps a line in the dirt that means the match is not happening past the line.

Kinda like shoot-offs are a different match...

SA

[ErikW]

I'll take what's behind door #1 please.

[skeeter]

it should be like a gunshop use good sence and everything will be ok

[Vince Pinto]

Steve,

Would the vendors be there if a match wasn't taking place?

If the gun vendor's area is not part of the match, what about the food or drink vendor's area?

My only concern at the moment is that the rules are silent on the issue and I think we need to make a statement, one way or another.

If this means making an exception for certain gun handling activities within the vendor's area, fine, but at the moment there are no rules.

Let's say there are two guys standing side-by-side. One is handling an unloaded gun, the other is handling an unloaded gun and a loaded magazine.

Should we be concerned and, if so, what rules apply?

[Steve Anderson]

For starters, most of us enforce safety rules cause we don't want to get shot...not because we don't want a dq.

What if we just made all vendors tables designated safety areas? We do have rules for those.

SA

[Vince Pinto]

Interesting suggesting, but don't forget there's usually ammo for sale in the vendors area!

[omnia1911]

Why not ask the vendors what is best to do? I think they would give you a reasonable solution.

[Vince Pinto]

Um, I've been in communication with two major vendors for over a week, and they've been very helpful.

I post here to seek competitor input.

[Nik Habicht]

Competitor Guns should be cased or bagged (at the safety area) before being handed to a vendor.  Vendors who are selling both guns and ammo should probably keep them well separated on their table ---- I don't see much of an issue with boxed or cased ammo on end of the table and guns on the other end.  Want to try a vendor gun? Fine, just don't point it at anyone.......

[2alpha]

Is there a big safety problem in the tent's?  Why bring this up? Is IPSC considering writing another idiotic rule?

[Vince Pinto]

Another idiotic rule? No. Another idiot's rule? Yes.

[omnia1911]

Disarm the idiots then, but keep the rule book focused on competion.

[Vince Pinto]

The rulebook dictates acceptable competitor behaviour at all times when at a match.

This includes the 1% of the time when they are actually shooting and the other 99% of the time when they're doing something else.

If we won't allow handling of guns in the shooter's shelter or when buying a drink or hamburger, we should address the vendor area.

Of course if you don't mind running the risk of being DQ'd in the vendor's area by an RO who merely observes our existing rules, no problem.

However I would like to recognise the "special circumstances" which exist in the vendor area and clearly state our expectations.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 10:57 pm on Dec. 22, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

Nik, Thanks for your constructive suggestions. I think we're on the same page.

[Steve Anderson]

Vince,

There's ammo in my bag when I'm in the safe area, I'm just not allowed to handle it.

If the vendor tables are a safe area, you can handle guns and empty mags, OR you can handle ammo. Not both.

Another interesting thought: If I can get DQ'd for handling my gun, can I get DQ's for handling a vendor's gun?

SA

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Steve,

That's what I mean by "special circumstances".

Clearly we must allow competitors to handle the vendor's guns but, as Nik said, the only restriction should be that you don't point those guns (or any gun!) at another person.

The ammo is a lesser issue, because you can handle ammo anywhere now except in a safety area, and the vendor area is not a safety area.

So, if you can handle ammo and provided you don't handle your own gun (except when in a bag or case when passing it to a vendor), all we need to do is make an exception for vendor's guns.

We're getting somewhere here!

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 7:23 am on Dec. 23, 2002)

[omnia1911]

What is a vendor? Is it anyone selling a product at a match? Do they have to obtain a special clearance with the match organizers, or have paid a vendor fee?

Will these rules only apply inside a designated "vendor area", or will I get DQed for looking at/handling my friend's gun at his car, or another one that I may be interested in buying?

Can I handle the gun on, or taken from the prize table?

Are we talking about establishing a new set of DQable offenses here? I guess it is a unique way of trying to getting your competition tossed from match, if so.

[Vince Pinto]

Omnia,

One of us is obviously having a lot of trouble understanding the rulebook, and I'm concerned that it's me, so can you please advise:

1) Where can I find an exception to Rule 10.3.3 which will allow me to handle my gun in the vendor area, or at the back of my car, or while buying a drink, or while walking between stages, or while using the Porta-Potty and so on?

2) Are prizes in your area awarded while the match is still underway or after the match is over?

You see, I'm trying to write a rule which will create an exception for the vendor area, so that competitors won't be "tossed from the match" for reasonable gun handling.

Clearly Nik and Steve already understand but, if you need more time, I'm happy to help.

[omnia1911]

I understand 10.3.3 and its intent quite clearly. I'm willing to wait and see what you come up with for a rule.

[TDean]

A very interesting subject Vince, one that I've thought about every time I see a vendor table with guns on it.  

It seems that the rules that mean so much on while your squad is shooting a stage, are suddenly ignored when you walk 20feet to the vendors table.  All guns are to be cased, bagged or holstered and not to be handled outside of a "safety area".  Is the vendor area a safety area?

The thing that bugs me the most about guns in the vendor area is when muzzle direction gets careless.  

I personally didn't check the gun that "Joe" is now pointing at my thigh, so it always makes me a little nervous.

But what can we do, put those little tie-wraps through the barrel to show safe condition?  That sucks because the guns can't be properly inspected for lock-up or dry-fired.

I know this would be difficult at some ranges, but what if the "gun" section of a vendor tent have all guns on a table facing a safe direction (berm) with a simple sign saying "Safety Area, all rules apply".

Now making a rule for this would make a lot of folks upset.  Some people just won't put up with change.

[Vince Pinto]

Tdean,

Although it was my initial thought too, I doubt we could designate the vendor's area to be a safety area because of competitors who buy or handle ammo. My current thoughts are:

1) Competitors may not handle and/or draw guns from their holsters, as usual.

2) If competitors want to get their own guns repaired or whatever, they bag or case them in a real safety area, then pass them to the vendor. After repair, they are returned to the competitor in the same bag or case.

If the competitor needs to handle his gun after being repaired, no problem, but no holstering or unholstering.

3) Competitors be allowed to handle the vendor's guns provided they point them in the posted direction (e.g. towards the back wall or at a paper target stapled to the table). While doing so, they must remain at the vendor's table and not wander off with the gun in their hand.

4) Competitors who want to buy or handle ammo must not do so while handling a gun. In other words, you handle one or the other, not both at the same time.

Hence we differentiate between competitor equipment and vendor equipment.

This is because vendors invariably bring unloaded guns for display, they've not been firing them and they don't have loaded magazines on their tables, so it's virtually impossible for them to screw up.

Will this work?

[Singlestack]

Sounds reasonable to me.