Ap - Production Division

[BigDave]

I don't have my rulebook in front of me - but who else thinks that a re-write of the rules regarding Production Division is in order? I'm thinking more along the likes of USPSA Production, or IDPA SSP - something like:

• Double/Safe-Action First shot
  
• Max 5" bbl for autos and revos
  
• Notch and post sights
  
• No magwells
  
• No comps
  

I want people who drive Glock 17's, Sig 226's and CZ's in USPSA or IDPA SSP to have (1) another game where the equipment they already own and use fits (and where they don't have to compete against tricked out metallic sight guns) and (2) to get more shooters and sponsors involved in Bianchi.

As I type this, I was wondering if further segementing the sport is a good idea? Then I decided - yeah, it is. This sport needs new blood and I think this is a good start.

Please chime in.

Edited May 30, 2006 by BigDave

[Musky Hunter]

what divisions are there in Bianchi now?

[BigDave]

Open - ports, comps, shrouds, wings, dots

Open Modified - think USPSA Open (no wings or shrouds)

Metallic - PPC sights, 6 1/4 " auto bbl, 8 3/8" revo bbl

Production - any catalog firearm, 5" bbl max length (don't quote me, I don't have the language)

Rimfire - 22's

[mscott]

I know you have to draw a line somewhere, but you're cutting off the Glock 34, 35 size guns and there are a lot of them out there. Why not go with the 5.5" barrel length?

[gm iprod]

Dave

AFAIK Production AP is pretty much Production USPSA. The Glock 34 and others are allowed. Julie G shot a Glock 34 a couple of years ago???

Some people have tried with the Glock 17 but the shorter sight radius and heavier trigger were the problems.

Many of these issues of non attendance by IPSC / USPSA will probably be addressed sooner than we think.

[99gski]

I would love to see a change in Production rules for AP. I have expressed my sentiments regarding the NRA's perception of what a production firearm is with Rudy and the powers that be.

Bianchi is a tough match. When I went there shooting an absolutely stock G34 (except for sights) a couple years ago I was WAY behind the power curb. When I shot it, Production was a subcategory of Metallic.

It would be wonderful if a potential competitor could come out with the guns that they shoot in SSP-IDPA/USPSA Production and play. Is a 1920 perfect score in their sights... maybe not, but at least if they were competing with those with similar equipment (inexpensive equipment) across the line it would help boost numbers and help grow the sport.

Even if you limited the field so that the 34/35 wasn't allowed you still have many of the G models available not to mention Smith's, Sigs, Berrettas, Para's, etc.

If Production is still to be a sub category of Metallic, maybe let the PRD shooters go prone with the open shooters as an incentive/more equal footing to counter that double action first shot. Have a Stock Aggregate available for those who shoot in Metallic and Production.

We have seen the increased growth of stock/production guns by way of Production/Single Stack divisions. It would be a good wave to catch a ride on for the NRA too.

Just a couple ideas as I really love shooting AP and would hate to see it go away.

All the best,

Julie

[BigDave]

GM - I realize that the the guns I'm suggesting already have a home, but it is along side with a "catalog" 1911 in any flavor - big difference, I think. I found the rule:

3.2.1 Production Firearm - A semi-automatic handgun

or revolver which is or has been a catalogue item readily

available to the general public equipped with metallic sights.

Custom-shop pistols are not allowed. All standard safety

features of guns must operate properly. The firearm shall

have no visible external modifications except as

I really think there would be growth if DA trigger pull was specified for autos.

I'm not suggesting that 5" is the way to go. I was wondering when I wrote that suggestion how some might take it, and I did it intentionally. While I realize that there are many 34's and 35's out there, I see a bit of a equipment race (assuming that this takes off at all) in terms of sight radius - Robbie doesn't shoot a 6" 1911 on accident. But, maybe it is worth it in terms of participation.

I'll be the first to admit - I'll be a whore here. I willing to concede to about anything for the promise of more participation. Desperate? Hell yeah! But, good intentioned!!!

[wolfgang]

Hello, instead of creating another new class, I would suggest just to adapt the IPSC production rules.

And very essential: make production a seperate category beside Metallic

Greets Wolfgang

[Flexmoney]

Why the IPSC Production rules...and, not the USPSA Production rules or IDPA Stock Service Pistol Rules?

You aren't going to pull from USPSA and IDPA if you make those shooters put a couple pounds back on their triggers.

And, you won't get any number on "brand new" shooters because there aren't enough grass roots clubs to pull them in.

[BigDave]

My thought is to "lay the biggest puddle of honey possible, so as to catch as many flies as we can."

I really, really like SCSA/ISI/Steel Challenge's approach to this issue. Open and Limited are per USPSA guidelines and then they specify guns/holsters for IDPA SSP, SSR, ESP and CDP. While that may be a bit long for our purposes, that is the spirit of what I'd like to see happen with AP.

[wolfgang]

Hello flexmoney, I just think on an international level. USPSA and IDPA is US only (as I know).

Also I think a brand new shooter will get frustrated about BC. I see the challenge in BC for people who are able to put 6 rounds into the AZone of an IPSC target on Command. And not people learning to hit what they aim for at all.

And, again my opinion, this isn´t a game for people used to shoot on targets wearing Tshirts. (take no offense on this one)

But to advance one´s marksmanship abilities BC is a perfect tool and game.

However: I agree on getting as much new people as possible. Why can´t all these Organisations just use basically same or close rules about gun categories ? There are (really are) people who can´t purchase just a differnet gun for every comp they wan´t to attend.

Edited June 9, 2006 by wolfgang

[BigDave]

Wolfgang brings up a great point - there are a great many shooters outside of the US. AP is an international sport, and Bianchi draws a international crowd. We need to keep these folks in mind if any rule changes are to take place.

[Allgoodhits]

Most good points, but is anyone (NRA) listening?

My .02 brings the following to the table. I never understood why Metallic or Production and Open Modified were permitted or mandated to be fired in a different manner than those shooting OPEN. Pertaining to prone vs standing and use or non-use of barricade. To me if a match or COF has to be fired a different way, then isn't it a different match? Yet in this goofy system, they competed together. How the hell is that fair?

If the NRA is not going to clean up the above mess, then why not consider the following, since mandating a required position (standing) makes a different match. OK, identify Production either by IPSC, USPSA or IDPA whichever seems to be most fair and have the Production shooters not shoot the 50 yard stage of the Practical, and not shoot the 35 yard stage of the Barricade. Yes their aggregate would be less, but they would not have to shoot the greater distances with firearms which were never intended nor are they suited for target accuracy at 35-50 yards, they would not be compared to nor shooting against the rest of the field using more suitable weapons. This may bring some Production shooters to the game.

I don't know of too many people who would want to shoot a combat designed unaccurized firearm with a "heavy trigger" in competition at 35-50 yards against 8 3/8" barreled revolvers. Setting the shooter ability aside the off the shelf, out of the box production firearm is not suitable for the challenge.

NRA, either make or permit everyone to shoot the match the same way, or truly make the divisions separate. If not that then go back to the Bianchi/Chapman era when there are no goofy classes, no goofy divisions, just shoot and rank the placements. Classifications in NRA AP are goofy anyway, since there is little to no opportunity in most areas of the USA for one to get properly classified. 144 shots is not a proper "test" for classification, especially since some shooters avoid matches which report scores to the NRA after a low classification card is received.

On another note. The NRA has been putting on this Bianchi show now for 20 + years under (since 1984+/-) their banner. According to them {NRA} they loose money every year. Well, I am quite certain that if a "private" entity takes over the Cup, and if they are unable to make a profit, it will surely die and it will die much sooner than the duration that NRA has thrown money into the pot. Private enterprise must make money to survive, the NRA merely has to ask for more money, and they must be pretty good at asking since they have been around since 1871. The "promise" of a new and better mousetrap, does not make it so. The huge NRA ship may be rusty, but it is much more seaworthy than a new fancy jet boat in unknown troubled waters.

Martin

Edited June 9, 2006 by Allgoodhits

[Kimberkid]

Martin just posed the most important and valuable question concerning all things related to Action Pistol.

Is anyone (NRA) listening?

NO!

If we all agree there should be a new class for tube fed, dot sighted bazookas that have barrels longer than 6" but shorter than 9" and only shoot on even numbered days of the month in regions with less than 22" of annual precipitation, it dont much matter.

There is very little sense in having these passionate discussions, which might very truly fix a number of problems, if the governing body wont listen. Its like watching a porn movie with the sound off and the child safety scrambler on. You know its a good thing, you just can't see or hear, or do anything about it.

Flex also pointed out the biggest limiting factor. There is effectivly no place to try out the new (or current/old) rules. Until the NRA (yea right) invests in developing a grassroots program, or an outside organization takes over and creates a zeal for AP that only belongs in BigDave, in everyone, we be shit outta luck.

Shoot what ya can, when ya can, but keep in mind who you are, and arent supporting.

[BigDave]

Current Rule

3.2.1 Production Firearm - A semi-automatic handgun

or revolver which is or has been a catalogue item readily

available to the general public equipped with metallic sights.

Custom-shop pistols are not allowed. All standard safety

features of guns must operate properly. The firearm shall

have no visible external modifications except as follows:

So, any "catalog item" would include pistols such as the STI Target Master or any other SA auto. Me thinks that DA/SafeAction autos need a place to play - 1911's already have Metallic Sight.

What if the rule was modified to read (italics):

3.2.1 Production Firearm - A idouble-action/SafeAction semi-

automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a

catalogue item readily available to the general public equipped

with metallic sights. The first shot of any string must be double-action/Safe Action. Custom-shop pistols are not allowed. All

standard safety features of guns must operate properly. The

firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows:

• Sights - must be notch and post type
  
• Barrels - aftermarket barrels are permitted, provided they are the same caliber as the factory original for the make/model of firearm
  
• Grips - wrap around grips are not permitted
  

Feel free to pick it apart, but that's what I'd like to see - or at least in that spirit.

[Allgoodhits]

Briefly if that is possible, Metallic and Open should be the same, except for the firearm used, or more specifically the sights which can be used. In fact perhaps Open Scoped vs Open Metallic. The manner in which the competitor shoots the events should be parallel.

Production is where some serious attention should be brought. Properly identify an out of the box, off the shelf mass produced PRODUCTION firearm and have a match for those guys. This match or matches could be the Bianchi 4 events, but do NOT make these guys, gals and guns compete at 35 or 50 yards. To keep the match a "modified" 1920 they could shoot the the "front half" twice for all the matches, or drop the 35 Barricade and 50 Practical on those matches and shoot 360 possibles for those events, or substitute the 35yd Barricade with a 20yd Barricade and substitute the 50yd practical with a 20yd stage. By reducing the distances for the Production shooters, we may even see a few more box .45's getting dusted off. Many people love the 1911 in .45 but, we don't see too many at BC anymore. Reduce the Mover to 10 & 15 yards twice and I think the .45 will return since one can hold lead on the target instead of air! Wasn't BC most popular before the equipment race?

Since I believe that Production is likely intended to be for the grassroots growth of the AP sport then make it suitable to the likely user's skill level and the the entry level shooter's equipment. This true Production class may then bring out the Sigs, the Glocks, the Berettas, Kimbers and the new S&W M&P. Perhaps one of the firearm manufacturers would step up to the plate to sponsor heavily such a contest, since real "retail obtainable" guns could really play fairly. Most all of these guns are capable of shooting quite well out to 25 yards, even with their "safe" triggers. Also, many a IDPA shooter already has suitable equipment and they are accustomed to shooting 10-25 yds. If they like the game, they can either stick with what they have, or decide to go Open Metallic or Open scoped. I may be mistaken, but aren't most of our current Production shooters former BC shooters who wanted to try something new. What we need is new shooters in order to adance the sport. Maybe we could get a few more Service and LE competitors too. BERETTA, SIG, S&W, KIMBER, GLOCK, FN and others are you out there? Factory Teams? Talk about sponsor opportunity through marketing. Julie, how about S&W?

MJ

Edited June 12, 2006 by Allgoodhits

[Flexmoney]

I shoot a Glock. I don't think you need to dumb down the barricade by leaving out the 35y portion.

We don't shoot the 50y stage at the local match (don't have enough room in the pistol bays), but I don't fear the 50y shot.

Dumbing down the stages would make them easier, but is that the goal? AP is a sport about accucracy. A gun that is 3in at 25y is mechanically capable of being a 6in gun at 50y, right? We don't need to shoot all X's.

Some of the other stages (besides the basic 4) offer up different shooting challenges. Maybe they could be used more often?

[BigDave]

Flex -

I think what Martin is getting at is making the sport more approachable. People generally don't like things that they don't do well at. This is a tough match with "specialized" equipment. The question is "if you build it, will they come?" Like you state, not every range has the depth required to shoot the match entirely. It isn't as if there is a rush of people fighting to get into the sport (hence our conversation here) - maybe a few changes like what Martin suggests are the ticket? I'd love to hear others chime in.

There are many shooters who have reservations about long range (25 yds+) shots in any match. If we see long shot requirements in USPSA or IDPA, there is generally no more than 12 shots in the entire match (and generally they're all in the same stage). In AP, you have 96 required shots , or one-half of the total 192, from 25 to 50 yds. It is tough stuff.

Martin - excellent point in regarding how the matches are shot. It should be the same, regardless of equipment used. Go prone wherever you like, touch the barricade whenever you like. But, it should be the same for everyone.

[Allgoodhits]

Flex-

It's not about dumbing down the match, it's about increasing shooter interest in a fun albeit challenging sport. Also, I am not referring to changing the entire BC COF, just make reasonable changes for the true STOCK/PRODUCTION gun toters. The key to Bianchi or other NRA AP events is that it is a fixed COF with PAR times and no up make shots or alibis. There is no eraser or do overs as may exist in some other shooting sports. This dimension is what makes Bianchi type shooting such a good teacher of ones self in competition. The hardest part about NRA AP is that it is doable! The mind can be a terrible thing when it comes to shooting sports. The Plates should not be as hard as they are but they are hard as one only gets 48 attempts at 48 plates which count as ten points or nothing. That is huge in a match which offers little room for error.

Dave-

If we are unable to get more people attending a National Championship than 120-140 participants it will not survive no matter who is running it. I believe as you state, that if we can get those with stock production guns to come and play the game, then they too will get the bug. Then they will return as a more seasoned stock gunner or return with an open gun, perhaps both! Personally, I am convinced that people do not shoot BC because it is hard! All other reasons to not shoot it are second to this.

To all-

NRA AP and other shooting games of a fixed COF and par times is not about the other guy. How you finish is dependant on how you do against the COF. In this manner you can practice the COF and I assure you if you are shooting 1910+ you will be competitive at any match. If you can predictably shoot 1920 at a big match you are a big dog. However, in some of the other games, ones indivdual performance, may or may not be an indicator of how you fair to the rest of the world. It is similar to standardized testing or grading on a curve. On standardized testing one can measure true progress, on a curve the results may be not so valuable as an overall measure of achievement. But again, to each their own.

MJ

Edited June 12, 2006 by Allgoodhits

[Greg in VA]

I came to the Cup to shoot nothing but Production. I started with a 6" S&W Model 66 with a trigger job and nothing else. The first year I finished in the top 20, then I found a nice 586 with the long barrel (8 3/8) and only had a trigger job done, nothing else. My highest finish was fourth last year in metallic and have never won production, finished 2nd twice. If you shoot a true production gun and compete against true production guns it would not be a problem, but I have seen some production guns that were all but.

My take on any match comes down to applying the rules equally, and some push the rules just to see if they can get away with it. At any time anyone wanted to see my gun no problem, but I have asked to see others and was told, to put it nice, go away.

Increase the knowledge base of the inspectors that look at the guns, give them the right to question anyone about any gun and leave the burden of proof to the shooter, if you think a gun does not qualify you can e-mail them way before the match and ask the question, they will respond, or at least they responded to me about questions concerninig PPC rules.

Production should only be limited to the gun not the shooting position, If you have a double action only auto, shoot it, if you like the match and feel you need to step up to a gun that will give you a better competive edge then do so, Action Pistol is not like IPSC or IDPA these COF are the same as in practice or the match, and you should be shooting against yourself anyway.

We can say what we want to, but shooting in matches, calling or e-mailing the director or chairman is the only real avenue we have to get the changes we want.

Greg in Va

[Kimberkid]

I gotta agree with Flex. I have heard Martin's ideas put out there in the past, and while I can see how some would find them attractive, I dont personally think it is a good idea.

AP isnt easy, just like IPSC, ICORE, Steel and all the others. If it was easy, no one would be happy about winning. I dont think the answer is to make the shooting test easier. Maybe it would push certain manufacturers to make more accurate or shootable guns. Shooting sports have pushed the industry to where it is today, why can't we push it further?

[Allgoodhits]

I gotta agree with Flex. I have heard Martin's ideas put out there in the past, and while I can see how some would find them attractive, I dont personally think it is a good idea.

AP isnt easy, just like IPSC, ICORE, Steel and all the others. If it was easy, no one would be happy about winning. I dont think the answer is to make the shooting test easier. Maybe it would push certain manufacturers to make more accurate or shootable guns. Shooting sports have pushed the industry to where it is today, why can't we push it further?

The NRA made the event a tad harder for metallic guys a few years ago by not permitting them to touch the barricade, and the NRA made it a tad harder for all by not permitting prone at the closer distances. Then the NRA mandated a minimum trigger pull weight and "safety devices" in working order mandates. Since these changes the attendance has declined. Thus making it "harder" or at least perceived as harder has driven people away. So then, it may be logical that making it less difficult for entry level shooters with Production guns, just may reverse the decline, or maybe it will not.

Make it easy, make it hard, I really don't care, but please make it the the same (perhaps except true Production guns) and then leave it alone. From year to year those wanting to build a gun are in limbo until just after January (rules committee schedule) then it's too late to get something built in time to shoot before the Cup in May. It is no wonder attendance is dropping, but then isn't attenadance dropping in most of the shooting sports?

MJ

[Flexmoney]

The NRA made the event a tad harder for metallic guys a few years ago by not permitting them to touch the barricade, and the NRA made it a tad harder for all by not permitting prone at the closer distances. Then the NRA mandated a minimum trigger pull weight and "safety devices" in working order mandates. Since these changes the attendance has declined. Thus making it "harder" or at least perceived as harder has driven people away. So then, it may be logical that making it less difficult for entry level shooters with Production guns, just may reverse the decline, or maybe it will not.

I don't see guys (my experience being what is posted on this forum) upset about the match getting harder, they are upset about all the changes...happening by a distant committee, not by the will of the shooters.

There is no need to change anything. If you want to make the match easier, then run some of the other stages. There is no reason a Glock, XD, Beretta, etc. shouldn't be able to shoot all 10's on Los Alimitos, for example.

[Allgoodhits]

Flex

Good point and I agree 100%.

However, since NRA AP filters down from the Bianchi Cup, and the Bianchi Cup has been wrapped around the setup at Green Valley's Chapman Academy, then future BC's if held at Chapman's will likely be the Practical, Mod Mover, Plates & Barricade, plus a few side events. The nearby practice range has been shrinking in recent years, so I am concerned about the future of that as well. Introducing a different "main" event requiring a different range setup is unlikely, but hey may be worth trying. I was trying to figure out a means of working within that existing venue at Chapman.

....and as Greg stated, us discussing it here is one thing, but I doubt the NRA decision makers spend much time on Brian's Forum. But hey Jeff, Kevin and perhaps others are venting opinions, if others on the AP Committee are viewing, thay are remaining in the background, and that is fine too as long as they are viewing. Unfortunately, I don't think the Committee truly runs AP. That deck always seems to be stacked with some non-NRA AP people so that NRA decisions can be feed from the top down, as they did with the prone, trigger pull and other "changes" which were quite unpopular.

MJ

[Flexmoney]

MJ,

I've never been to the Cup, so I am looking at this from an outside perspective.

I didn't even know the range was called "Chapman". But, if I am guessing right, that is the likely source of the "Chapman Barricade" event/stage that we have been shooting locally for the last couple of matches?

---------------------------

You know, I was thinking about this the other day.

The NRA is a huge organization. And, it has a huge list of gun owners...shooters...ranges...etc.

It has the know-how in marketing and the wherewithal.

There are AP stages that are easy to setup.

The guns, at the local level at least, don't need to be very specialized. Heck, it could be easily shoot with 22 rimfire.

If the NRA really wanted to grow this sport, wouldn't it be growing ???