Revolvers That Are Not Legal In Uspsa

[hdgun]

Don't let this happen to you!

I have just found out that my 6.5" 610 is not USPSA legal.

I was told, by milling the holes in my barrel gave me a competetive advantage.

These holes took a wopping 1oz reduction in weight.

this goes for 10mmDave's gun as well.

So all you guys doing Ty cylinders and cutting lugs off barrels lugs better think twice.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...pe=post&id=3908

[Carmoney]

Don't let this happen to you!

I have just found out that my 6.5" 610 is not USPSA legal.

I was told, by milling the holes in my barrel gave me a competetive advantage.

These holes took a wopping 1oz reduction in weight.

this goes for 10mmDave's gun as well.

So all you guys doing Ty cylinders and cutting lugs off barrels lugs better think twice.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...pe=post&id=3908

OK, a couple questions:

(1) Who told you your gun is not USPSA legal? Lots of people have opinions on things, but that doesn't mean those opinions are correct.

(2) The picture is pretty fuzzy--do those holes in the barrel actually penetrate through to the bore? If so, it's pretty obvious they would be considered porting, and porting has never been allowed in Revo division. If not, I don't see any problem with them.

Now, to act as devil's advocate here, and at the risk of frustrating you further, why did you bother doing that to your gun in the first place? One ounce can't possibly make any meaningful difference in the handling of the thing. I can see where taking off the whole underlug would change the dynamics some, but even then all you guys are accomplishing with all this effort is to approximate the handling of a 5" 610 or 625 or a 6.5" 25-2. I know that 5" 610s have become godawful expensive, so I understand the effort to avoid that cost. But are you really that married to the idea of shooting .40/10mm? I mean, it's kinda cool to be different, I suppose, but other than that can anybody articulate one single reason to insist on shooting a 10mm revo in USPSA when the .45 ACP can do everything just as well (and some things better), and you can find the guns for $500 or less all day long?

Edited May 25, 2006 by Carmoney

[hdgun]

I had a bad feeling about the mods aI did to the barrel. So i contacted the powers to be @ USPSA. I was told by them it was not legal because i went beond the acceptable permitted modifications.

The holes in the underlug do go through. The ones on the barrel are only inlays. About 1/32" deep.

I was trying to take some weight out of the barrel to come close to a 5". I thought it would have come out a little more than an oz.

as far as the choice of 10mm/40 or 625, I just like the 40. You know, to each his own.

BTW, I do have a 5" 610 as well. just trying to get the weight close to each other.

[Vlad]

Not legal in what division? I'd be hard press to see how it wouldn't be legal in open, so it would be legal in USPSA as a whole.

[bgary]

Two quick thoughts:

1) Not sure who the "powers that be" at USPSA are that you contacted, but if it was anyone other than John Amidon, you didn't get official guidance. Your Area Director cannot give you an official ruling; the USPSA President can't give you an official ruling, and the USPSA office cannot give you an official ruling. The only *official* rulings come from the Director of NROI.

2) if it were me, I would consider (re)contacting Mr. Amidon for a more specific ruling. While the US Revolver division has tight constraints on what modifications are allowed, I might try to argue that the barrel mods are "cosmetic" in nature, and some cosmetic mods are allowed. The holes will certainly will not help reduce recoil, so they should not be disallowed on that basis, IMHO.

Bruce

[pmd]

I'd be hard press to see how it wouldn't be legal in open, so it would be legal in USPSA as a whole.

Why would you shoot a revo in open ?

[hdgun]

This ruling came from John Amidon

[Flexmoney]

Bruce,

That isn't exactly true either.

Amidon, and each and every one of us can give an opinion. (An "Official Ruling" would be posted on the USPSA Rules page.)

Granted, Amidon's opinion ought to carry a bit of weight and provide some clarity.

But, the process is set forth in the rule book. (Which goes up to and includes arbitration.)

The only exception is an "official ruling" through the NROI and BOD...as posted on the USPSA website.

So, what we need to look at here is what rule addresses this particular issue...

[Tom Mainus]

I'd be hard press to see how it wouldn't be legal in open, so it would be legal in USPSA as a whole.

Why would you shoot a revo in open ?

Why not?

[Flexmoney]

I'm not sure what issues are in question here, do these rules seem to fit?

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced by an OFM and available to the general pubic (except prototypes) is permitted.

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the OFM standard;

19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage (e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

19.4 Modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Not legal in what division? I'd be hard press to see how it wouldn't be legal in open, so it would be legal in USPSA as a whole.

I would suggest it would not be legal in Revolver division. Read appendix D5 page 93 item 17. It states "Complete Revolver" Not chopped and channeled. #18 also could apply but that would be a stretch.

As for the Ty cylinders it clearly states in 19 what the modifications are limited. BUT item 17 states different set of requirements.

This should turn out to be a very interesting discussion.

I don't know HDGUN, you are just a gamer I guess and living on the edge.

Regards,

[hdgun]

Thanks gary

John A said, The holes went beond the cosmetic mods.

I had mentioned Ty cylinders in my first post. It was not said as to be non legal, but just a precaution. ( check with John A )I have read about people doing things to their guns and don't want to see them in the same spot as my self.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Thanks gary

Any time John. You violated the cardinal rule. "Don't ask, don't tell" Off to acupuncture.

Gary

[Waltermitty]

I'm still not clear on which rule addresses the violation. What specific rule reference was given by John Ambidon?

If 19.3 is the reference, this has the potential to be a very large can of worms. I'm not terribly concerned about the Ti cylinder by itself because of rule 17, or chopping or changing the hammers because of rule 19.1, but if John A. actually interpreted that your modifications are more than cosmetic, to be consistent he's going to have to nix cylinder chamfering, and crane ball locks to start. I'll have to think a while to remember any other similar mods I have seen.

If his test is whether or not it gives you an advantage, somehow that language will have to be reconciled with the very real advantage ergonomic and highly modified grips provide even though they are specifically excluded as "cosmetic". Lurking in there somewhere will have to be an actual advantage definition. Further, since slide porting is specifically allowed in Limited & Limited 10, the rule precedent would appear to go the other way.

Gawd I hope this isn't the start of another destructive round of equipment nit-picking. The whole Vaneck Glock Production trigger flap certainly spiralled into an ugly scene and I don't know if that whole mess is over yet.

[Carmoney]

You violated the cardinal rule. "Don't ask, don't tell"

Gotta agree with Gary on this!

About the only RO you'll see at major matches who regularly competes in Revo division is Jeff LaFave. And he's a total gamer (Gary needs to remember this is only a bad word in IDPA and a rather high compliment in USPSA ) who runs around with a brace of fancy-ass titanium-cylinder California-style custom wheelguns. Your fellow revolver competitors will NOT whine (except maybe in a joking-around way) about stuff like holes through your underlug--I'll guarantee that.

And that is because, just like that little shiny spot under a certain Production shooter's trigger guard, it doesn't frickin' matter.

I know Rob V. has spoken personally with Amidon about revolver barrels, and was told pretty much anything goes. So the truth is, right now it's all just inconsistent conjecture. And the last thing we need is to start arguing about the equipment in our division, where winning matches is most definitely NOT about the equipment. Know what I'm saying?

My preference would be for Flex to edit away this whole thread, you guys keep right on shooting your trick barrels, and we all act like this conversation never happened!

Edited May 25, 2006 by Carmoney

[hdgun]

My preference would be for Flex to edit away this whole thread, you guys keep right on shooting your trick barrels, and we all act like this conversation never happened!

It would be nice for it all to go away. If anyone would want it to it would be me.

[Waltermitty]

You violated the cardinal rule. "Don't ask, don't tell"

Gotta agree with Gary on this!

About the only RO you'll see at major matches who regularly competes in Revo division is Jeff LaFave. And he's a total gamer (Gary needs to remember this is only a bad word in IDPA and a rather high compliment in USPSA ) who runs around with a brace of fancy-ass titanium-cylinder California-style custom wheelguns. Your fellow revolver competitors will NOT whine (except maybe in a joking-around way) about stuff like holes through your underlug--I'll guarantee that.

And that is because, just like that little shiny spot under a certain Production shooter's trigger guard, it doesn't frickin' matter.

I know Rob V. has spoken personally with Amidon about revolver barrels, and was told pretty much anything goes. So the truth is, right now it's all just inconsistent conjecture. And the last thing we need is to start arguing about the equipment in our division, where winning matches is most definitely NOT about the equipment. Know what I'm saying?

My preference would be for Flex to edit away this whole thread, you guys keep right on shooting your trick barrels, and we all act like this conversation never happened!

Amen Brother!! I can get all behind that shiznit!!

[hdgun]

Well Guys, Caliber convertions are out too!!!!!! (686 38/357 to a 38 super )

Did I open a can of worms or what?

Edited May 25, 2006 by hdgun

[spook]

Man, too bad to hear this. I saw some funky barrels and revolvers at the World Shoot that were in no way legal, yet they passed the equipment check like nothing was wrong. I personally didn't care much, because I know how much competitive advantage it gives the shooter (0%)

Is there any way you can weld up the holes and polish the barrel so you can't see it without close inspection?

[hdgun]

Man, too bad to hear this. I saw some funky barrels and revolvers at the World Shoot that were in no way legal, yet they passed the equipment check like nothing was wrong. I personally didn't care much, because I know how much competitive advantage it gives the shooter (0%)

Is there any way you can weld up the holes and polish the barrel so you can't see it without close inspection?

+1 on the equipment race

That could be a thought Spook, have to find a good tig welder to do it.

if any one out there wants to help me out, chime in.

[Randy Lee]

Ti cylinders are OFM and don't offer any competitive advantage. They do however take the punishment better.

[hdgun]

I had mentioned Ty cylinders in my first post. It was not said as to be non legal, but just a precaution. ( check with John A )I have read about people doing things to their guns and don't want to see them in the same spot as my self.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You violated the cardinal rule. "Don't ask, don't tell"

Gotta agree with Gary on this!

About the only RO you'll see at major matches who regularly competes in Revo division is Jeff LaFave. And he's a total gamer (Gary needs to remember this is only a bad word in IDPA and a rather high compliment in USPSA ) who runs around with a brace of fancy-ass titanium-cylinder California-style custom wheelguns. Your fellow revolver competitors will NOT whine (except maybe in a joking-around way) about stuff like holes through your underlug--I'll guarantee that.

And that is because, just like that little shiny spot under a certain Production shooter's trigger guard, it doesn't frickin' matter.

I know Rob V. has spoken personally with Amidon about revolver barrels, and was told pretty much anything goes. So the truth is, right now it's all just inconsistent conjecture. And the last thing we need is to start arguing about the equipment in our division, where winning matches is most definitely NOT about the equipment. Know what I'm saying?

My preference would be for Flex to edit away this whole thread, you guys keep right on shooting your trick barrels, and we all act like this conversation never happened!

I would have written about the same as above had I not been crunched for time. They get overzealous with the needles if you are late.

As for the "Gamer" comment. As you know, Mike, I mean that as a compliment.

I too would like to see this thread go south. No one other than a fellow revolver shooter has any idea what we do or what our gear looks like. All they know is we are "different". All the revolver shooters know is we show up and are damn glad we do no matter how we shoot or what we use.

I have seen John's 610. Personally, I thought he did a great job but he should have used a little more Dremel to stay with the general revolver theme

Regards,

[Barrettone]

You violated the cardinal rule. "Don't ask, don't tell"

Gotta agree with Gary on this!

About the only RO you'll see at major matches who regularly competes in Revo division is Jeff LaFave. And he's a total gamer (Gary needs to remember this is only a bad word in IDPA and a rather high compliment in USPSA ) who runs around with a brace of fancy-ass titanium-cylinder California-style custom wheelguns.

Mikey,

I am deeply offended and greatly saddenned that you feel I am a gamer. I am equally dissappointed that you feel my "brace of fancy-ass titanium-cylinder California-style custom wheelguns" are "gamey". Do I detect a note of jealousy perhaps??? I do believe somebody is in need of a "time-out" on the naughty mat (insert female british voice here). I shall have to get you a gift certificate for Apex for X-mas. Not everybody dremels their own stuff in the geerodge (yeehaw Cletus).

All

Seriously though, I do agree that it isn't about the equipment. We all shoot wheelguns because it is as simple as it gets. You can only have six rounds (no filed magazines or different base pads will get you more capacity), and it really comes down to the nut behind the "wheel". I don't see how 4 pound triggers, bobbed hammers, ti-cyliders, millet sights with fiber optic fronts, cut-down grips, or chamferred cylinders is going to overcome the 6-round limits imposed on our division. I agree with what people are saying here, that this topic needs to go away. While being "gamey" in the other 4 divisions (five counting the provisional singlestack) can be beneficial, the same just doesn't hold true for what we shoot. On my best day with the moons and stars aligned, with me shooting my tricked-out gun, and a guy like Cliff Walsh shooting a rusted-shut peacemaker with a broken sight and S&B factory ammo (hot as hell), I STILL couldn't beat him!!! These are just the facts. I say, lets bury this puppy and go shootin!!! Real men shoot revos...and we shoot heads-up!!!

Edited May 25, 2006 by Barrettone

[johnhurd]

Thanks gary

John A said, The holes went beond the cosmetic mods.

I had mentioned Ty cylinders in my first post. It was not said as to be non legal, but just a precaution. ( check with John A )I have read about people doing things to their guns and don't want to see them in the same spot as my self.

Stick some fake rubys in there if that isn't cosmetic I will................ no I won't..........