Safety Dq

[shred]

And if the shooter instead of calling the RO right when they caught it instead slowly sat down, set the gun in the dirt, stood up and then called the RO, what changed?

[Rob Boudrie]

What the rule really means is that nothing ever treated as "cold". Guns are always treated as "hot" for the purposes of handling, even when they are "cold" - which is why picking up your own gun when dropped is a DQ even though the gun is "cold."

As to "I agree, but we're talking about cold guns." If we are accepting that these are cold, rather than potentially hot, guns, why is there any DQ involved at all?

[chuckbradley]

Here's one that came up recently that I'll present - I think it could qualify...

Shooter is hanging out on the range, but not in a safe area. Shooter bumps his gun against a table, causing it to fall out of the holster. Shooter reflexively catches the gun in mid-air, then calls RO over, and is found holding the gun right where he caught it.

By the rules - this is a DQ (at least, that's my understanding). However, he didn't actually do anything unsafe, and didn't intend to handle the gun, and just did what most probably would do and went to prevent his expensive gun from hitting the ground reflexively...

Much like jury nullification, I'd be tempted to let the shooter back in, if I were on his/her arb committee, as long as it could be shown that these were the circumstances...

Anyhow, that's one I can think of that might qualify... feel free to shoot all kinds of holes in it, though.... what do I know (and I should know better, by now, than to enter these conversations, but.... ).

This happened at a nationals and the shooter was let back in. It was determined he did nothing unsafe. I would argue that catchng a falling gun by reaction is not what the intent of the rule meant when they wrote "gun handling". A definition of gun handling might be in order. Doesnt necessarliy mean touching or holding.

[XRe]

Like I said - if we want to debate the merits of DQ'ing or not DQ'ing a person for catching a dropped gun, the intricacies of what constitutes gun handling, etc, we should take it to a different thread. Otherwise, we're going to drift this topic far from Gary's purpose...

Rob - if a gun is always hot, then why don't we DQ a shooter for dropping a gun in the shooter's area, regardless of whether he caught it, or picked up, or anything else? If a loaded gun can go off when it's dropped, and every gun is always loaded, didn't he just do something very unsafe? On the other hand, if dropping a so-called "cold" gun, but not picking it up is somehow safe, then, in practice, how is catching a gun IN THE EXACT SAME CONDITION somehow inherently unsafe??? Pointing at "the first rule" is useless as an argument. Our rulebook makes exceptions for it (otherwise, you wouldn't be able to go to a safe area - you'd have to have RO supervision at all times).

I think Chuck's made my point clearly for me - thanks, Chuck

[Bigbadaboom]

Rule #1 of gun safety was intended for the handling of firearms i.e. when you are handling a firearm treat it as if it were loaded at all times. This can't be done because I would not attempt to clean a loaded firearm. Intelligence "IS" required when handling firearms. Don't let the muzzle point at anything you are not willing to destroy even if the gun is not loaded.

If my gun falls I will instinstively try to catch it if for no other reason than my feet being down there. I don't think it's very safe to have a gun, loaded or not, hit the top of your feet.

[chuckbradley]

Gary, one example of an extreme circumstance that we have now fixed and dont consider it to be a DQ, is a round detonation while unloading. Not a discharge but a detonation. I was one that sent emails and chewed ears to get this changed. The shooter did nothing wrong except have a freak accident.

If you really think about it, allot of these situations never come to a DQ. The RO involved sees the circumstance and doesnt give the DQ. Its rare when we have these circumstances and a DQ is given. I was at a match once, it was a state championship, I caught my grip on my coat and the gun came out. I caught it on my leg and promptly put it in the holster. An RO was watching me. I shrugged my shoulders and the RO did to. That was it. I wasnt handling my gun. That is an example of extreme circumstances and common sense prevailing.

[Barrettone]

I would say that there are a TON of examples that could be used to overturn a DQ. Most of them, would include outside influences beyond a competitors control. As with the kids on the berm and the bees nest that were mentioned earlier, you could have a dog, cat, or deer (a gutsy one!!!) wander onto the range during a COF. These are all natural forces that we can't control. The same could be said for dust devils, lightning strikes, or huge wind gusts that can all cause problems. Anything that creates a potential safety risk (like blowing debris, falling wall sections, etc...) needs to be evaluated on its own merits to determine if the competitor had a reasonable amount of control over the situation, and if a REASONABLE MAN would have been able to avoid the safety infraction that would be charged to the competitor. It is all very judgemental, and they all are going to require some common sense being applied if the competitor could not reasonably avoid them.

DVC,

Jeff

Edited April 7, 2006 by Barrettone

[Nik Habicht]

If my gun falls I will instinstively try to catch it if for no other reason than my feet being down there. I don't think it's very safe to have a gun, loaded or not, hit the top of your feet.

You're barefoot in the kitchen and drop a razorsharp butcher knife. Do you try to catch it, or try to move your feet out of the way? I know what I have done in that situation.....

[Bigbadaboom]

If my gun falls I will instinstively try to catch it if for no other reason than my feet being down there. I don't think it's very safe to have a gun, loaded or not, hit the top of your feet.

You're barefoot in the kitchen and drop a razorsharp butcher knife. Do you try to catch it, or try to move your feet out of the way? I know what I have done in that situation.....

Actually, I have a large scar on the end of my right ring finger from doing just that in my grandmothers kitchen when I was about 14. So, Yes, I would probably try to catch it. Instinct. Besides, there's nothing sharp enough on my gun to cut me open.

[Nik Habicht]

If my gun falls I will instinstively try to catch it if for no other reason than my feet being down there. I don't think it's very safe to have a gun, loaded or not, hit the top of your feet.

You're barefoot in the kitchen and drop a razorsharp butcher knife. Do you try to catch it, or try to move your feet out of the way? I know what I have done in that situation.....

Actually, I have a large scar on the end of my right ring finger from doing just that in my grandmothers kitchen when I was about 14. So, Yes, I would probably try to catch it. Instinct. Besides, there's nothing sharp enough on my gun to cut me open.

Guess we all have different life experiences...... I drop a knife in the kitchen, and my instincts, shod or barefoot, are to get my feet out of the way.....