Downward Flinch Question

[tcristo]

While at the range today I noticed that I have a noticeable downward flinch while performing livefire I have a habit of loading my magazines with a random number of bullets. My thumb also rides the slide release on my Sig so the slide doesn't lock back after the last round has been fired. This usually means that I will fire all the bullets in the magazine and not realize that I am empty. When I pull the trigger and get a dryfire, I notice the front site dips. On a target that is ten yards out, the front site is dropping a couple of inches. The second time I pull the trigger the front site stays exactly where it should. Any ideas, suggestions, or help?

[JD45]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...0678&hl=pulling

[bountyhunter]

While at the range today I noticed that I have a noticeable downward flinch while performing livefire

Any ideas, suggestions, or help?

If I had a dollar for every shooter who does this, I would have Bill Gates waxing my car.

IMHO, some slight downward movement applied AFTER firing is not bad, and helps bring the gun back on target faster. If you are dropping the nose as you fire or before, it's bad because it ruins the shot. The bottom line is always: are you hitting where you are aiming?

If not, work on fundamentals.

Smooth trigger pull and 100% focus on sight picture as the shot fires will account for about 99.99999% of the mechanics you will ever need to master for accurate shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

There is a difference between a flinch and compensating for recoil. The difference is approximately a tenth of a second. One happens before the shot is fire, the other after.

Compensating a recoil is just the pressure that you need to return the gun to its normal position. People should never load dummy rounds randomly in a mag to try and discover a flinch.

[AWLAZS]

There is a difference between a flinch and compensating for recoil. The difference is approximately a tenth of a second. One happens before the shot is fire, the other after.

Compensating a recoil is just the pressure that you need to return the gun to its normal position. People should never load dummy rounds randomly in a mag to try and discover a flinch.

Jake how would you teach /correct that if not with the random dummies?

[tcristo]

There is a difference between a flinch and compensating for recoil. The difference is approximately a tenth of a second. One happens before the shot is fire, the other after.

Compensating a recoil is just the pressure that you need to return the gun to its normal position. People should never load dummy rounds randomly in a mag to try and discover a flinch.

The flinch \ recoil compensation appears to be subconscious and only happens when I live fire. When I dry fire, the sights remain right were I have them aimed. When I attempt to call my shot, and I flinch, I seem to be high (the shot is low) by a couple of inches vertically. When I mix in the snap caps I seem to reduce the number of times I flinch.

I doubt if I am being overpowered by the gun (Sig 226, 9MM). When I fire my Sig Trailside (22lr) which has very little recoil, I have no flinch at all.

I realize there may be a safety issue with dummy rounds being intermixed. When I hit one, I can never be 100% sure I haven't hit a hang fire or squib load. I keep the gun pointed down range for 5 to 7 seconds before I rack the Sig to replace the dummy round and continue firing.

So....if dummy loads are a bad thing, what have others done to overcome this problem?

[Loves2Shoot]

Random dummies won't do it at all, for the above reasons.

If the gun doesn't go off and you don't move some, then you aren't managing recoil, you have to push back some or it doesn't work.

Usually watching the eyes/face gives away a flinch, since it is anticipation of the recoil and not a reaction to it. Also, watch the hits on the target, they tell a lot.

ps. Random dummies aren't bad, just not real useful for the use of flinch detection unless under the supervision of a trained professional

Edited April 12, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[Jake Di Vita]

Basically the only way to get rid of a flinch is experience, a few exercises (to let your subconscious know the gun won't hurt you) and double plugging. You will need an experienced shooter (or one that definetely does not have a flinch) to help you identify if you have one or not.

[ima45dv8]

+1 on the double-plugging. We all know the recoil from a round being fired won't hurt us. Your sister can hit harder than that. But the noise of that explosion happening so close to your face and ears is spooky to your psyche and the natural reaction is to run away (flinch).

[Bigbadaboom]

If you are dumping, in most cases, the muzzle will point toward the ground when the gun fails to fire. If you are compensating for recoil properly, again in most cases, the gun should drop on a fairly even plain.

[XRe]

If you are compensating for recoil properly, again in most cases, the gun should drop on a fairly even plain.

This doesn't make much sense... unless you are pushing your arms down and bending your wrists up at the same time, the gun can't lower (or be pulled down as part of your recoil management) without the muzzle lowering as well... ???

There are subtle differences in the gun movement, being before or after the "click"... Scott and Jake know what they're talking about, here.

Some signs you might have a flinch - you don't see the sights lift, the gun cycle, or the "fireball" around the sights (ie, you're closing your eyes or blinking). You see the sights centered, but the hits are way off - usually low or low and left (for a righty). You can't even begin to shoot a group. Etc...

You can see someone w/ a flinch wince or blink or otherwise make weird faces when they pull the trigger. You can see the gun dip before the gun goes off while they're shooting (if you're watching carefully, and not flinching yourself ).

[Bigbadaboom]

If you are compensating for recoil properly, again in most cases, the gun should drop on a fairly even plain.

This doesn't make much sense... unless you are pushing your arms down and bending your wrists up at the same time, the gun can't lower (or be pulled down as part of your recoil management) without the muzzle lowering as well... ???

When someone "dumps" they are tensing and flinching and when they pull the trigger in anticipation of the bang their shoulders rise and pull in towards each other, their elbows and wrists break and they tend to point the muzzle toward the ground. Hence the term "Dumping". When you are performing recoil compensation you are only pushing back against the gun to get it back into position faster therefore you are maintaining your form and you don't dump the muzzle towards the ground but keep the gun level towards the target. A dump will usually hit really low and below the target. If you lose your timing and compensate as the shot breaks instead of after causing the gun to dip down but stay level it usually results in a low hit on the target.

Yes, Jake is correct that one happens prior to the shot break and the other happens post shot break but they will both happen if the gun goes click and they look different.

When you train young boys (Scouts) and teens you see it a lot. I'm training my 15 Y.O. now and he has finally gotten the hang of compensation and doesn't flinch anymore.

Here's a good article by M.B. on it.

[Loves2Shoot]

I have to disagree with the "out" part of what you are saying.

I don't flinch and if I have a round not go off the gun dips very precisely down, not forward. I've been told it is very precise, just a pulse, but it's down for sure. Your strong hand creates a pivot point, so to control recoil aplied to this pivot point you have to pull down at the front of the grip on the lower portion. Pushing forward would be pointless. Recoil control is about counter acting the pressure applied to the pivot point, not the rearward pressure. Hold the gun upside down (1 bullet only, EMPTY MAG ONLY unless you want a full auto effect!!! WARNING not suitable for open guns and shorts) and it will recoil down not up.

I can and do demonstrate this by shooting holding the gun in the weakhand only (normal freestyle grip) and just actuating the trigger with the strong hand. The gun still flips around the new pivot point, and not backward.

ps. I double plug, if I don't my scores will show it.

[XRe]

I don't flinch and if I have a round not go off the gun dips very precisely down, not forward.

+1... The "out" part is handled by grip and stance, and is the result of setting your body up to not be pushed backwards by anything... much less the girly recoil of a little pistol... Seriously - done right, you can hold a whole person off...

I see the same thing Scott describes when I hit a dud, or otherwise have something wrong - the key is, I see it happen, and it happens immediately after the hammer drops, not before. I don't have any sensation of pushing the gun further out, and it's not apparent to anyone watching me, either... but the dip is. And the muzzle points below the target during that dip. To the untrained eye, it's very similar to the dip you see during a moderate flinch - both point the barrel downwards

[bountyhunter]

I doubt if I am being overpowered by the gun (Sig 226, 9MM).

I shoot one of those and even with 9mm, an aluminum framed gun firing 9mm still has a pretty good snap to it at discharge. That's what you are reacting to.

So....if dummy loads are a bad thing, what have others done to overcome this problem?

Here's one drill: change the rules of the game. When you fire, focus entirely on the front sight with the objective of seeing how HIGH you can let the muzzle rise. In other words, let the gun pivot at your wrist but apply zero miscle resistance to it's rise.

Another drill is to completely focus on sight picture and concentrate on not blinking at fire. Don't even hang a target, just shoot downrange. The objective of the game is to only see the sights as you pull the trigger and watch them rise, and make sure that the sights are not moving as you pull the trigger to break the shot.

Eventaully, you will be able to "separate" the act of sight alignement from trigger pull. Once the sights are in a certain area, you shut off all attention to alignment and concentrate fully on pulling smoothly straight through and watching the sight picture as the shot fires.

[Lurper]

There is no such thing as flinch. What is happening is a timing problem. That's why dummy bullets etc arent' the answer. Your mind will compensate for the non-existent recoil. What you are doing is anticipating the shot (playing "gotcha"). You have your sights lined up, your conscious mind says okayl, sights are aligned- quick pull the trigger- and you do, for all you're worth. Problelm is, most of the time you will find that you have no idea where the sight was when the shot broke. To stop anticipating, focus on your front sight. Concentrate on slowly pulling the trigger. Feel the trigger move every nm while staying aware of the sight alignment. Keep pulling slowly and evenly until the shot breaks. This will give your conscious mind something to keep it occupied while you are pulling the trigger which will allow your subconscious mind to take over. Do that a few times and that will resolve your timing problem. Whenever you find yourself having that problem in the futue, do it again.

[cautery]

I'm definitely not really the one to be offering an opinion here, as I have an UNCORRECTED flinch, but one that I AM working hard on.

I have a developed habit of "snatching" the trigger, and a sub-conscious blink at ignition. I KNOW this because I am unable to properly call a shot... mostly because I have no idea where the sights are at break.... eyes are shut.

I am working on the problem with dry fire AND live fire. I have no problem at all with dry fire. Eyes open, and I KNOW where the shot will impact. I continue to dry fire in an attempt to finally repeat my sub-conscious into forgetting about everything else BUT the sight relationship and to ONLY input force changes to the single muscle group in my trigger finger once sight alignment is achieved...

In live fire, I have started adding quick group shooting (on both steel and paper)... Essentially, I am simply trying to train my sub-conscious that nothing bad is going to happen if my eyes stay open... By releasing shots faster than my eyes can cycle, I actually force them to be open to SEE what the sights and the pistol are doing. Right now, I am lucky to "see" the blade lift out of the notch and where it goes. I know there is a lot more to see, but it is getting better...

I acquired the problem by trying to use only moulded ear plugs... Prior to that, I didn't have a flinch that I was aware of... Subsequently, I have begun to use my Peltors... I have them ON when I'm not at the line. At the line, I have taken to turning them off.

It's a long process to break a bad habit... It's going to take 10 times or more time/rounds to BREAK the bad habit than it took to acquire it.

I don't believe there IS a short cut... But the first step is recognition.

I've got 16 lbs of powder and 25K primer and bullets for this season. I will consider it a good investment if at the end of my currremt stocks and this season, if I have in fact conquered this problem.

Flinches ARE real... They are an extension of the hard-wired "fight or flight" coding in our DNA... NOT having a flinch is the successful RE-wiring of the mind to IGNORE the F-or-F stuff in our brains...

Just my 2 cents...

Incidentally, my analysis shows that side benefits of conquering this flinch will be at least a 50% reduction in split and transition times... not to mention a whole lot fewer Cs and Ds...

[XRe]

Clay - give this a try. Load up your mags and go dump them into the berm, as fast as you can pull the trigger. Dump all the mags in a row. All you need to focus on is watching the gun move. See the slide, see the sights, see the stuff shooting out of the barrel (you can see gasses, etc, if you're real aware). As you watch the sights, you'll probably begin to notice them track up and down. After a bunch of rounds in this fashion, your brain should begin to get comfortable with the gun going off.

Have someone help you check your grip and stance. If your grip and stance can't resist pretty firm pressure back into your hands, you need to work on that, cause the gun is effectively driving you, not the other way around. That will help with reduced apparently recoil impulse.

Then, work on trigger control. Shoot a group doing this: line the sights up, then play with the pre-travel of the trigger. Just move it back and forth, feeling the pre-travel, but don't break the shot. Then, break the shot by pulling the trigger to the rear, and pinning it to the rear. Finally, ease off on the trigger, and strive to feel the trigger reset through your trigger finger. Do this at a slow, comfortable pace (1 shot ever few seconds) and at, say, 10 yards. Don't worry about group size - instead, just aim at the same spot and follow the trigger control stuff. You'll be surprised

I didn't come up with any of that, BTW... All stuff you'll find on Burkett DVDs (and maybe elsewhere, but that's where I've picked it up)....

[cautery]

Thanks Dave... Kinda what I'm doing after a fashion... I'll give it a try using the procedure you outline.

[D_4_Ever]

I don't know if this will work for others, but I have been working to manage my flinch reflex (admittedly, I still have work to do) by: Increasing support-hand pressure steadily w. Bill Drills, until I have the perception that recoil pulse is travelling laterally, rearward toward the triceps and shoulder joints. This perception is difficult to describe, but if you watch a GM shoot a field course, you can see them doing it... For me (and I'm a D-classer), there's a perception that the recoil is under my control vs. the more common perception I have, which is that of fighting to align the sights before calling the shot. Depending upon the gun, I might start out w. as much support-hand pressure as possible and then taper it off gradually until I find the balance. This is just experimenting w. the principles in BE's book, of course & is predicated on a consistant strong-hand grip position and trigger control. I'm now able to feel the correct/incorrect placement of strong hand from the feel of the tang & grip-safety's position in the webbing between thumb and trigger-finger. In my last match, the consistant/comfortable grip (or lack there-of) meant the difference between a clean stage (ie: better than personal average time & no Mikes) vs. a FUBAR'ed stage, (where I was sub-consciously regripping the gun between shots). [ Dang, how I hate it when I catch myself doing that...].

Edited April 19, 2006 by D_4_Ever

[Standby!]

Is this what you are trying to explain?

Pay attention to :06

[Loves2Shoot]

Great reply, but 5 years too late for the OP

[Standby!]

Great reply, but 5 years too late for the OP

Yep..I revived a dead thread...yay me!