Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I fit a new extractor following the instructions on Bob Londrigan's Web site. The firing pin stop fits in the cut in the slide perfectly. However, the extractor still clocks or rotates because the groove in the extractor is below the cuts in the slide for the firing pin stop. I assumed that the round would push the extractor over until the back of the extractor fit snug against the firing pin stop, but such is not the case. How do I keepo the extractor from rotating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I think you're hosed. From what I can tell, the notch in the extractor needs to fit pretty precisely over the FP stop. Call Bob or Ingi, order two of their barstock extractors. Worth twice the price (don't get any funny ideas there Bob). Brazos extractor is so good it felt like Christmas came early when I fit it. Totally exceeded my expectations for such an inexpensive part. I actually didn't need to do much fitting at all. Rounded off and polished the bottom of the hook, tensioned it, and I was back in biz. If you've got a Mig handy, you might try zapping a pad or two on the botton of the extractor notch and filing to fit in the interim. Give you something to work out some frustrations on anyway... I fit a new extractor following the instructions on Bob Londrigan's Web site. The firing pin stop fits in the cut in the slide perfectly. However, the extractor still clocks or rotates because the groove in the extractor is below the cuts in the slide for the firing pin stop. I assumed that the round would push the extractor over until the back of the extractor fit snug against the firing pin stop, but such is not the case. How do I keepo the extractor from rotating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 You need an oversized firing pin stop to get a good tight fit so it doesnt rotate. Or you can get an Aftec but even they need to have a tight fit to keep from rotating. The front and back corner or the firing pin stop needs to be broke to allow the aftec to pivot but not rotate. Instructions incuded with the aftecs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 The extracor is one of Bob's. I guess I am confused because I don't under stand how an over sized firing pin stop will help if the extractor groove is below the edge if the firing pin stop. I am replacing an Aftec that has been nothing but trouble, but I think the Aftec was worked over. I hate to spend $65.00 if a new Aftec won't work any better than the one I have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ron, you need an oversized firing pin stop From EGW. Call them, ask for George, tell him what is going on. He will send you an oversized stop and tell you how to fit it. He will also tell you what to do with the radius on the bottom, the one that cocks the hammer. EGW is the only one that I have ever been able to make work RIGHT when the 'stock' parts don't keep a commodity extractor from clocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ron, I understand your problem and a oversized stop will not solve it. You need an extractor that lines up with the stop groove or your banging your head against a wall. If a new extractor does not line up or need to be cut to line up then the slide/extractor hole dimensions may be off. Also, Did the person who "Worked over" the Aftec know what they were doing? I have them in all my guns and they all run great. Were the stop edges faceted so that the Aftec would "swing" in and out? Was the bottom side of the hook tapered? Is the hook clearing the chamber face of the barrel? These are all things that Aftec recommends if you "Call" them and discuss it. They are great folks who are more than willing to help. They'll even fit it for you if you send them the complete upper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 BBB, he took the Aftec out and has fitted a standard extractor, that extractor is clocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I don't exactly understand what's wrong, from what Ron describes, but he's told me that the disco rail on this slide is too long - he determined this along the way, somehow. Something is whacked w/ this slide... I hate to say it, Ron, but I would think about shipping this sucker back to the smith with a "please kindly fix this - once and for all" note, and explain that the slide is crap, etc. The slide manufacturer should replace that part for him, if it's out of spec, so he shouldn't have to buy a new part, just fit it. If he's worked over the AFTEC in order to get it to fit and work in an out of spec slide, he needs to replace that for you (he shouldn't have used that slide in the first place). There's no reason why you should shell out that kind of dough and have this sort of problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 BBB, he took the Aftec out and has fitted a standard extractor, that extractor is clocking. I know that. I sure hope he didn't throw the Aftec away because it is appearant that fitting the new extractor didn't work. If it fits the slide and doesn't "clock" then it can be made to work, if someone hasn't destroyed it, by doing the things I suggested or others recommended by Aftec. It's better than hunting an extractor that will fit. Ron, Does the Aftec "clock"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Dave: The disconnector rail is .005 too long (over maximum spec.), measured from the breechface to where the slide stop slides into the gun. I don't want to quibble about .005 if the gun will run. The gunsmith told me he thought there was a remote possibility that the extractor hole was out of spec., but he had no way to measure it so going ahead with a new upper was a last resort. He did offer (at one time) to install a new slide, but he didn't follow through because he thought he had the gun running. I think the gunsmith was blaming the slide geometry when the issue might have been a bent Aftec. I spent a lot of time on the phone with the guy at Aftec (don't recall his name, lost the number) and he thought from my description of the problem, the Aftec has been hacked. Originally it was installed so tight that the brass barely rolled out of the gun. I filed the stop as per his instructions and the brass immediately extracted easily, but the pattern was erratic and failures to go into battery crept into the equation. Here's the bottom line, I feel the issue has been the extractor all along, but the gunsmith doesn't concur. I got the gun running reliably yesterday with a long STI ejector, Bob's extractor, and an STI slide stop, but the extractor groove is below the cut in the slide so the extractor clocks giving me erratic ejection. I also forgot to trim the long ejector back and a loaded round wouldn't eject because the bullet wouldn't clear. I filed the ejector back, but that won't cure the clocking. After six months of hell, I am convinced the problem has been nothing more than a fouled up Aftec all along. What should I do? Send the pistol that ran fine for the gunsmith back to him again and tell him he doesn't know squat? Put yourself in the gunsmith's shoes, the gun has never puked in his hands with his ammo and a sample of some of my ammo, but it barfs like a poisoned hound falling off a gut wagon when I shoot the gun. Furthermore, I have tinkered with the gun so what's the gunsmith supposed to think? This whole issue sucks big time. Yeah, I could get really pissed and send the gun back again. Then I am out $65.00 for shipping and insurance, and the gun will be gone for several months. The idea of sending the slide and old Aftec extractor to Afetc is starting to look like a good idea. I would still like to get a back up extraction/ejection system working in case something breaks in a match. Edited March 9, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ron, If you're saying what I think you're saying, it sounds to me like you have a slide that is mis-milled. If the FP stop isn't meeting the groove on the extractor and has been like that for multiple extractors, then an OS FP stop won't help and actually can't help as far as I know. I thought your extractor had the groove deepened as part of the fitting process the first go around. This deficiency should be fairly easy to document with a digital camera. I'd snap a few pictures, post one or more here, then tell the guy to either fix your doggone gun or hand you your $3600 back OR you'd be all to happy to attach a name to it. I guess they won't let that happen here, but you're all too welcome to put it on the front page of my website. This is just stupid. You should not have to fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I don't want to quibble about .005 if the gun will run. The gun running is the most important thing, no doubt. but the extractor groove is below the cut in the slide so the extractor clocks giving me erratic ejection. I still don't understand what you mean, here. "The extractor groove is below the cut in the slide" ??? A picture might be worth 1000 words, in this case, as Eric suggests. Send the pistol that ran fine for the gunsmith back to him again and tell him he doesn't know squat? I didn't say that I know better, anyway. I just said ask him to make it run If parts are out of spec, nothing anyone does to it is likely to get it running 100%. You told him you wanted to run Super brass - it's a mystery to me why the gun running with rimless brass means it runs. It doesn't run w/ Super brass, which is how you ordered it It seems strange to me that he couldn't measure a slide to determine if all the machining is in place correctly - those are pretty basic things (although some things, like hole diameters, take a couple of specialized tools...). I'd think, being where he is located, he could find the appropriate tools to borrow, or something... Put yourself in the gunsmith's shoes, the gun has never puked in his hands with his ammo and a sample of some of my ammo, but it barfs like a poisoned hound falling off a gut wagon when I shoot the gun. Furthermore, I have tinkered with the gun so what's the gunsmith supposed to think? This whole issue sucks big time. You tinkering with the gun is why I wouldn't suggest taking off in a tirade on him Well, I wouldn't suggest that, anyway. Look, you ordered the gun a certain way. He's responded "it runs fine this other way" (ie, with completely different ammo) - and the few test rounds you sent him of your stuff ran fine, too, but it won't run for you. You've checked all the obvious things, and it still doesn't work. It ran fine before chrome, but afterwards, you've had all the problems. There's something wrong with the gun, and simple tinkering doesn't appear to be able to fix it (at least, if there's really a problem with the slide, simple tinkering probably isn't going to fix it, anyway). The idea of sending the slide and old Aftec extractor to Afetc is starting to look like a good idea. I would still like to get a back up extraction/ejection system working in case something breaks in a match. That's a thought - at least you'd have another set of eyes on it, at that point, and it won't be as expensive as sending the whole gun somewhere... If you're saying what I think you're saying, it sounds to me like you have a slide that is mis-milled. If the FP stop isn't meeting the groove on the extractor and has been like that for multiple extractors, then an OS FP stop won't help and actually can't help as far as I know. This is what it sounds like to me, too. This deficiency should be fairly easy to document with a digital camera. I'd snap a few pictures, post one or more here This would certainly clear up a few things for me about what's going on with the extractor clocking issue, anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 .005" is the thicknes of a couple sheets of paper.. I wouldn't think that was the source of all the trouble. The FP-stop not bottoming (side-ing?)-out on the extractor sounds much worse. How much can it turn? A stripe of magic-marker across the back of the slide & extractor should show how much it rotates during use. It might be possible to shim it, or deepen the slot on the right side of the slide and peen the FP stop wider, but those both are kinda hack-jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ron, maybe I am missing the problem. I understand you to say that the extractor is clocking or rotating clockwise when a round is fed under it. Is this correct? If it is then that problem is the firing pin stop fit and an EGW firing pin stop fit properly will stop that. What does the slide stop have to do with this? Or did yo mean firing pin stop? The STI's used to be good but they went to a mim part recently that is undersized. We had to switch to EGW firing pin stops becasue of it. I have heard that STI will be going back to the old firing pin stop but who knows what is out there right now. Now when you say the Extractor groove doesnt line up that tells me either the extractor or slide is out of spec. If its the extractor than you get a new one, but since you have done that, its the slide. I have seen several of these over the years. If the distance between the breechface and the back of the slide where the firing pin stop goes is too long it will not leave enough room for the case rim to slide up under the extractor hook. There has to be enough room to allow the case to pivot as it feeds. If its a small amount you can try different extractors and possibly find one that is a little out of spec the other way and it will work. This is the dimension I find off when its off. I have never seen one where the distance was too short. Now if it isnt off too much you can cut the back wall of the extractor groove to allow the hook to move forward just enough to allow the pivot of the case as it feeds. Not the best situation but a fix. If its off too much then it just gets to sloppy and the slide is trash. I think you may have a couple issues happening at once. Why did it never do it for the gunsmith and just for you? I cant go there here but I think we all know the answer to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Here is a simple procedure to verify if indeed extractor "clocking" is causing your problem. Remove the extractor, clean/degrease thoroughly. Fill most of the rear positioning groove/cut with fast curing "JB Weld". After the epoxy/JB Weld dries, remove any excess from its circumsference. Now push/install the extractor into the tunnel. Make sure you line up the outer edge parallel with your slide and the inner firing pin recess cut with the cut in your slide. Making sure you don't rotate the extractor by keeping an eye on the outer line-up, gently (with a small needle file) remove/file the JB Weld using the slide cut as your depth guide. Do not remove any metal from the slide. Do this untill the firing pin stop slides in and out normally and snug. Now assemble the upper and go test. If your problem persist, then "clocking" was not the issue. If it was cured, then follow the suggestion above by removing the "temporary" JB Weld and replacing it with weld spots/rebuild to the same dimensions that worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Chuck, I meant FP stop, but my foul mood is interfering with my thought processing. Picture this. You stick the extractor through the hole in the slide. As you know, there is a little notch in the extractor that accomodates the firing pin stop. There is also a groove in the slide that the firing pin stop slides into. The bottom of the notch in the extractor is below the level of the firing pin stop groove in the slide. As a result, even with a firing pin stop that completely fills the cut out in the slide (from side to side), there will still be a space between the firing pin stop and the extrator. For those who have been following this fiasco, the gun ran fine in the white, but when it came back from hardchrome the slide wouldn't even cycle on the frame rails. The gunsmith manually removed all of the hardchrome from the mating parts and he also polished the hardchrome out of the extractor hole. I thought maybe the hole in the slide was oversize, but a number whatever the hell size it was drill bit barely goes in the hole. I was told to check that dimension by the guy at Aftec. I paid for this gun in September and the 'smith has had it the majority of the time. If I send it back to him I can kiss off my whole spring time shooting season. I have been relatively patient and those who know me can assure you when I finally blow a gasket, I will do something really dumb like buy another Open gun from another maker and tell the maker of my current blaster to shove it sideways. What about this idea? I send the top end to Aftec and ask them to inspect the slide for proper tolerance and to properly fit a new extractor (there goes anothe hundred bucks). If they tell me the slide is out of whack, I'll send it back to maker. If they can fix the problem, I am good to go. PS: Don't even suggest I call the original gunsmith. He is swamped and I have tried calling him a couple of times a day for a week. Damn I am mad. Venry, you posted while I was posting. Thanks for the tip. Edited March 9, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) I think you may have a couple issues happening at once. Why did it never do it for the gunsmith and just for you? I cant go there here but I think we all know the answer to that. Chuck: It's not what you probably think. The gunsmith had the gun ejecting properly with his ammo (Super Comp believe it or not) and with some .38 Super ammo that I sent him in new R-P cases. But the gun fails to go into battery on rare occasion with new RP cases and way too frequently with .38 Super Starline (new). If I decrease extractor tension (new extractor) the failures to go into battery vanish with everything I have fed the gun, but the extraction is all over the place. The gunsmith has never had the gun fail to go into battery, but he hasn't shot the gun in cold weather conditions, with various loads, etc. Get the picture? The groove in the slide lines up with the groove ion the extractor. The bottom of the groove in the sxtractor is below the bottom of the groove in the slide instead of flush. Ron Edited March 9, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 It is a .38 Super Aftec, right? Running well w/supercomp and not w/super almost sounds like it's got the rimless-size one installed. not that this has anything to do with the non-aftec clocking issue.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I almost added this but thought no everybody knows this and that couldnt be the problem. I dont care what anybody says or says they do. You cannot set a gun up for super comp and shoot 38 super brass through it and vice versa. I know I have some tell me they can but you cant on a normal basis and expecially with an Aftec. Thats why they have a 38 super and a 38 super comp extractor. Now some may be getting away with it with ordinary extractors that bend each time a case is fed. The aftec doesnt bend, it works on springs so the variance in spring compression isnt as much as the differnce in case rim diameter between super and super comp. If he set it up for super comp then run super comp. If you want to shoot super then get a super aftec. The rest of the stuff still holds true. The back wall of the extractor groove is where the firing pin stop has to be fit up tight against to keep the extractor from rotating. the side walls are not that important except for what I talked about earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Ron....as usual I wanted to post some smart ass remarks, but damn I can't. Quite the pickle your in and I know it sucks and can sense how aggrivated you are. A gun that does not run is not worth the metal it's made of. On an STI Grandmaster I had I could not use any extractor except the original factory one because of the dimension from the breechface to the firing pin stop was out of spec. Ruined 2 Aftec's until I figured out what the heck was going on. Will Aftec take the whole gun and test fire and all? I know shipping is more but I would be suspect of anything without a complete once over of all the major components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) It is a .38 Super Aftec, right? Running well w/supercomp and not w/super almost sounds like it's got the rimless-size one installed. I mentioned that to Ron via PM. He said it's got the Super extractor in it. Measuring the hook height on the extractor (assuming it hasn't been modified) would show that. There are other differences between the two, but that's a good indicator as to which one it is... Ron, if AFTEC is willing to look at it, send it there. At this point, my understanding is that you'll be sending it to Millenium Custom - AFTEC and MC have the same number, now, so I can only assume that Derek J is now a owning partner in AFTEC, or owns it outright. Derek's also a well recognized smith, so... and if he'll check it out quickly and inexpensively, that might get you a quicker answer.... Given any more thought to running rimless brass??? You cannot set a gun up for super comp and shoot 38 super brass through it and vice versa. I know I have some tell me they can but you cant on a normal basis and expecially with an Aftec. When Rusty Kidd (who invented the AFTEC ACE, remember) builds the gun, it sure as heck will.... The extraction gets squirrelly w/ the wrong extractor (ie, no nice little consistent pile), but it works both ways in my current race gun, and with the previous race gun he built for me... Rimless extractor and Super brass, and Super extractor with rimless brass. I wouldn't recommend this, and as you point out there's a very good reason why they have two different extractors for these applications, but it can and does work if the gun is built appropriately... If he set it up for super comp then run super comp. If you want to shoot super then get a super aftec. Ron says he's got a regular Super extractor, though... Removed comment here about how I think the parts are supposed to fit. I don't think I'm right, upon reflection, so... Edited March 9, 2006 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 What about this idea? I send the top end to Aftec and ask them to inspect the slide for proper tolerance and to properly fit a new extractor (there goes anothe hundred bucks). If they tell me the slide is out of whack, I'll send it back to maker. If they can fix the problem, I am good to go. That would be my next step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Derek at Millenium Custom now owns Aftec. He bought it about a month ago. Dave, As I said I have people tell me they can run both. I dont want a gun that runs both. There are a few that fall through the cracks of what should be. And yes you are right there is a reason they offer the extractors for both 38 super and super comp. The reason is the difference in rim diameters is around .020. This varies by manufacturer. If you set it up for super comp then you will have failures to feed with super. If you set it up for super then you will have cases slipping off and stovepipes and eratic ejection with super comp. Is it possible to have a fine line in the middle that may run both, maybe. I tend to believe if you take a gun that is claimed to run both and ran 1000 rounds alternating cases you will have many of one type the malfuntions i have described. As far as i am concerned anythng less than running 100% isnt good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) I left one little "important" tidbit out of my previous post because the question posed asked how to eliminate extractor "clocking/gyrating" in the tunnel to change the profile it presented to the cartridge/rim, thusly affecting (allegedly) the proper extraction of empties. As we all by know by now, Aftec extractors pivot at the firing pin stop, and require a slightly looser fit at the rear to allow such pivoting to occur. Standard extractors do fit tighter at the rear since they pivot from a point determined somewhere in their center lenght, much unlike the Aftec. By this deduction you must surmise that it is possible to remove all "clocking/gyrating" from a standard extractor, (as illustrated by my previous post) but doing the same to an Aftec would interfere with its pivoting requirements and cause it to behave like a "super tense" standard extractor and negate the Aftec requirements. On the same token, because the Aftec requires that pivoting motion, the same "looseness" of fit would also mandate a certain degree of "clocking/gyrating" potential that can not be removed past a point. So, while you can remove to a minimal degree "some" clocking from it, you must be carefull not to bind it. A simple test would be to install the Aftec without springs and then from the front with needle nose pliers or strong tweezers check for unimpeded freedom of movement side to side, (and check obstructions up and down which should have tension) and then try to see how much rotation/clocking you have to alter the extractor face/profile. Remedy as needed without hindering the range of movement needed for normal functioning. Sometimes removing/filing a little bit of angle from the top of the claw, in addition to beveling/angling and rounding a litttle bit from the bottom will tune up an Aftec for better side ejection. It seems to somehow cancel a little bit the effects of clocking. Remove too much and you will ruin it, be carefull. Edited March 9, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I had one more thought triggered by Chuck's comment above.. how big is the breechface? If it was on the low-end of spec and made a tiny bit smaller by application of chrome, it could also be an accessory to the problem. IIRC there are differences in rim diameter between brands of Super, but I forget where I heard that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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