Reloading On The Move

[XRe]

EG is one of the only people to shoot a 50+ ounce open gun made by TZ, with a finger-forward grip, scooping out-then-up on every presentation, and using isometric push-pull tension [as in: Ross Seyfried] and doing it well. He shoots so much that it all works for him. Like, 1000 rds/day before major matches.

This reminds me of talk about the golf swing. You can watch a lot of pros swing the club, and just about everyone has a slightly different swing, but some are rather unusual. It's not strange for someone with an unusual swing to win, either - but you frequently hear of those folks having to work a lot harder at keeping a consistent swing, so that they have predictable ball flight. Lee Trevino comes to mind, and so does Jim Furyk. Trevino won all the time in his day, but even he says not to swing the club like him - and that he had to work his a** off all the time in order to keep it together enough to win with it.

Talented athletes can win with "non-standard" or "non-optimal" technique, for sure. Many find that they are even more consistent and perform better if they manage to switch to the more accepted skills - if they can afford that time investment in their game. IIRC, both EG and the Burner tell people not to shoot with their finger on the trigger guard, for instance...

[Jake Di Vita]

Ok I lied.

Here is the video of reloading on the move (live fire).

Reload on the move (live fire)

[bierman]

The video is great. If you haven't checked it out yet, go do it now. Its kind of hard to get across in words what a video can accomplish in 15-20 seconds. Thanks Jake.

[spook]

Just because he is the world champ doesn't mean he does everything right. He is an incredibly good shooter, but honestly there are many things about his technique I don't like at all.

Eric Grauffel wins because he is the most consistent shooter in the world.

Maybe his way of reloading is part of his consistency?

The problem I see with reloading in the first (two) step(s), and then moving is twofold.

1) Your speed of reloading has to be high or you will start moving fast later.

2) You're initial focus is not on hauling ass to the next position, but on completing the reload.

The problem with 1 is that the faster you have to make a reload (read: fast for you) the less consistent it will be. I love to see Travis' ultrafast reload, but I also must admit he is the only one I've seen fumble his reload totally twice in a couple of shooting DVD's.

I have seen Eric mess up a reload, but because he spreads the reload over the whole lenght of the movement, nothing is lost.

If you can move as fast while doing something with your hands as you normally can, spreading the reload will be more consistent....

.....and faster, because of 2. The problem with 2 is easy. If you don't start moving as fast as you can immediately after you call the shot (preferebly even before that by leaning to the next position) you will move later and thus be slower.

[driver8M3]

Most top shooters I see "Are" reloading on the move, but they are not reloading while running. Their reload is over before they get into the running part of the movement.

if you have the 06 lim SS video, check out stage 16. for the shooters that shoot the middle targets stationary, there is a big space to cover before getting to the far right targets. some are clearly reloading while running, including the overall match winner. i'm not saying he always does it that way...it appears that the amount of space to be covered factors into how it is done (either, reload fast, then move for shorter distances; or haul @ss and reload on the way for the longer distances).

[Powder Finger]

I believe that if you look at the time it takes to actually get up to speed (moving)

that theres plenty of time to get the load in. Also the load does not have to be lightning quick. A lot is lost when you try to apply how fast can you load (.8,.9,1.0 whatever) and how fast do I need to load in a certain situation (1.0,1.1,1.2 whatever).

If you do all the steps correctly (IE: Jake Brian & others)

call shot

see mag well (start leaning)

load

move

your load will be done before second step.

Point is if you do it this way in most instances your mind is calm during the load.

Your mind can be almost any where while running.

[Jake Di Vita]

spook,

Yes you are right on both those accounts. I see however think that method is more reliable then Eric's for a few reasons.

1) When you are actually moving while reloading it is much harder to get a mag into the gun.

2) It greatly increases the chances of not being ready coming into position.

3) You aren't moving as fast as you could be because you are reloading.

That being said, that may be the perfect way for Eric to do it...it just doesn't work for me, and I wouldn't teach that to my students.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think a lot of it depends on how "quick" people are. If someone doesn't have super speed like Jake or TJ, they loose too much time if they don't focus a bit more on getting there than getting the load done "now," as long as the load is done before they get there. I find myself doing both, depending on the situation.

[spook]

Jake, the things you mention are the exact three things that came to mind when I thought about the downside of "Eric's way".

I think however that point 1 and 2 you mention will only apply if a) the shooter is a beginner/bad reloader, or the distance between positions is very short.

With "a" I mean that shooter like you, Eric, Todd, JJ etc., will never have difficulty getting a mag into their gun if they have to move more than 8 ft. They will be ready when they are there. They have good reload skills.

And I do think that spreading out the reload over a longer period of time will allow you to be more consistent, but that is just personal speculation

So with those shooters, it all comes down to the third point you mention: are you much faster if you "wait", reload and move, or if you haul ass and reload on the move?

I believe in the second option , but the only way to know is to time it

Edited March 16, 2006 by spook

[Radical Precision Designs]

Dean Makkos (a fellow Club member and friend) from ww.ipscaction.com took the pictures of about every competitor at the Florida Open. I was looking at those he took of me during the "Bowling Alley". I think my shots/pictures start on the area around pages #14 - 17 and the mag change sequence around pictures #202 - 207 (frame position count?) Florida Open 2006, Squad #25 - BEnos "Nut" Squad. While looking at my pictures I noticed it included the start of the stage where inmediately after the first target/s I turned to the side enroute to the next target, made a mag change and readied myself for the next "distance" shots which I proceeded to take while on the go. Despite my initial "fumble" on the side turn where I went forward first and then sideways, (I can't turn as sharp as you young'uns!) you can see that as soon as I rectified my stride with right foot/leg forward my left hand went straight for the mag, and by the time that step (left foot/leg) was completed the mag was inserted, my gun was up on target and the shooting continued smoothly and uninterrupted. Sure, I do have to watch that muzzle (180 sky-high limit) as the mag was inserted ) But here is proof that no delay at all was caused by reloading on the "initial" get-going while it was incorporated into the natural/normal body movements. Now, I am not a GM or top shooter by far (presently anyway, but who knows?) , but this technique can be used/adapted by anyone. It is logical, fluid, time saving and purposefull.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs

[Ron Ankeny]

When we talk about the reload, the goal should be to come up with the most efficient way for you to perform the reload under various shooting conditions. New shooters need a place to start and in general terms, starting with the time proven techniques employed by the majority of good shooters is a decent beginning point.

Then it's time to get out to the range and spend a lot of quality time developing the technique that works for your shooting style, the way your body works, and your temperament. Personally, I settled on a technique that is plenty fast enough, but also has the lowest disaster factor for me.

[Bigbadaboom]

That's what it's all about. Maintaining a low disaster factor.

[eric nielsen]

What Ron said is good - use a timer and find out what's better for you.

I found out that when given a choice of two places to do a mag change - one a long run and the other a short run - I always came out ahead if I did the mag change over the shorter distance and left myself the opportunity to strictly RUN over the longer distance. Maybe it's because I drop my body down much lower on the first few steps of "just running" or maybe the load gets done better over a few steps. Whatever the reason it turned out faster overall movement time, consistently.

If you try this for yourself you may have the same result or the complete opposite.

[mcoliver]

Point A to point B. If you're already covering that distance in the same time, with or without a reload, I guess it shouldn't really matter how, where or when you do your reload.

Of course, the next step would be to figure out why somebody is covering that same distance faster than you can even when he's reloading.

[Jake Di Vita]

spook,

I see what you are saying, and would normally agree. The only difference is that I am doing neither of the two reloading methods you mentioned. I am accelerating the same as I normally would without a reload....just reloading before I get any speed up.

That said I'll say once again that this is just the fastest way for me and my body type.

And also....crap happens...I've been known to occasionally blow reloads. The reason I like reloading on the move like I do, is that the gun hasn't started moving with your body yet. It kind of gets rid of an extra variable in the reload, which is the main reason I believe it is more consistent.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Jake Di Vita

[cz75ipsc]

I'm with spook on this one, but I'm a mere mortal . I just realized that there MAY be a difference between IPSC and USPSA shooters on this one. A lot of european top shooters reload like EG, whereas a lot of american shooters seem to prefer Jake's (or Travis' or..) way. I believe this originates to the fact that in IPSC we have VERY few static reloads, and thus we don't practice them as much. When you look at it, Jake's way is basically a blazing static reload and then haul ass (simplifying a bit of course). A lot of USPSA shooters practice static reloads for classifiers anyway, and that may aid in making Jake's way more efficient for them. Something to think about... FWIW, I prefer EG's (or spook's) way.

[Radical Precision Designs]

I'm with spook on this one, but I'm a mere mortal . I just realized that there MAY be a difference between IPSC and USPSA shooters on this one. A lot of european top shooters reload like EG, whereas a lot of american shooters seem to prefer Jake's (or Travis' or..) way. I believe this originates to the fact that in IPSC we have VERY few static reloads, and thus we don't practice them as much. When you look at it, Jake's way is basically a blazing static reload and then haul ass (simplifying a bit of course). A lot of USPSA shooters practice static reloads for classifiers anyway, and that may aid in making Jake's way more efficient for them. Something to think about... FWIW, I prefer EG's (or spook's) way.

You have a point here. Watching both Jake's static and the moving reloads (both videos) I notice no difference between them. Jake first (stops to) reload, which is done standing still to allow concentration and muscle memory refining to a maximum effect and minimum time. If you added an additional motion it could disrupt the sequence and a mag go flying. Jake uses his blinding fast reloads while keeping his center planted (growing roots?) and after, using the same explosive approach tackles the course. It works for him, but it might not work for someone less athletic or focused. It is indeed a viable approach. On the other hand should Jake master the "moving and reloading" principles he might be even faster due to his energetic, focused approach.

[wide45]

Most of the "get the reload done early" crowd are not saying stand still while you reload, then move. Most are reloading, AND moving. A good reload will be done before you cover two steps. Tho top level guys are done reloading in one step.

[spook]

spook,

I see what you are saying, and would normally agree. The only difference is that I am doing neither of the two reloading methods you mentioned. I am accelerating the same as I normally would without a reload....just reloading before I get any speed up.

That said I'll say once again that this is just the fastest way for me and my body type.

And also....crap happens...I've been known to occasionally blow reloads. The reason I like reloading on the move like I do, is that the gun hasn't started moving with your body yet. It kind of gets rid of an extra variable in the reload, which is the main reason I believe it is more consistent.

Jake,

I know you're not "standing still" when you reload, but I noticed there is a certain "pause" between the last shot and getting up to speed. I'm just curious if you would be faster if you leaned towards the new position really far and really tried to get there as fast as possible, while reloading.

I also think it has a lot to do with body type or other personal stuff

I have to lean and get up to speed cause I'm pretty tall