Shot Calling At 50 Yds

[BigDave]

I'm gearing up for Bianchi and I've spent the better part of the last two weeks (and 1000 rds) on my stomach trying to figure this short (12 rounds) but critical portion of the match out. My groups are getting smaller (but not small enough), but the placement of the group on the target is still all over the place.

What changes to my vision do I need to focus on? At distance, every little mistake is amplified. What is absolutely critical at this range? Would setting my sights up for a bottom of the target (NRA D1/AP1) be beneficial, or should I just go with the center hold that I've been using.

TIA

[R112mercer]

Dave;

One of the things I've learned on the fifty yard line in PPC is how your body/head position in prone can affect where you hit. If your neck is at a severe angle this can cut off blood flow to your head, and therefore your eyes. Your vision can quickly become poor, causing you to drop shots, misalign the sights, or use an incorrect sight picture. Also, pay attention to whats in your path of vision to the target. Since your eyeballs are only 5-6" off the ground high grass and irregularities in the ground itself can obstruct your sight picture. I used to think that prone was the easy part of the fifty yard line (Hey, I'm laying down, this'll be a snap!), but I find that many of my shots outside the X ring are from this position

[BPiatt]

At 50 yds, the center hold can cause you to focus on sights, then focus

on the target to find the center after recoiling, then back on sights. Especially

when the lighting is poor and it's hard to see the scoring rings.

If you have a tri-set type sight, try a top or bottom of target hold.

I also agree with the previous posts about head position. Personally, I need

to be directly behind the gun with my head upright. If I get lazy and tilt my

head, I can't shoot a group to save my life.

Eliminate or change one item in the shooting equation until you find what works for you.

Good luck,

Bruce Piatt

[R112mercer]

Now, if you're shooting at retired Army tanks at 300 yards it's important to calculate your bullet drop for the hold over. Which we found to be about a tank to a tank and a half at that distance with a .45 at 750 fps...

What's going on Bruce?

[BigDave]

Well, shoulder flexibility is something I'm really going to have to address. I'm using a side or roll-over prone now and my head is cocked quite a bit to get low enough. It isn't easy for us big guys, you know.

[benos]

At 50 yds, the center hold can cause you to focus on sights, then focus

on the target to find the center after recoiling, then back on sights.

That's the hard part to master. And I never did, in the match. For the last several years I shot the cup with iron sights, my groups at 50 were always either high or low. 10-ring groups, but not in the middle of the 10 ring.

Looking back on it - I feel it was because under the extra pressure of the match, I would hurriedly find what I thought was the center of the target, come back to the sights and fire the shots (on the 2 and 3 rounds/target strings) without re-finding the center of the target before firing each shot.

I think what Bruce said is what you have to master, for shooting irons at 50 w/center hold.

Another factor, for irons at 50 w/center hold, is that your practice target will "look different" than the targets do in the match. The targets in the match are secured at the bottom with a big, black metal clip that uses up a couple inches of the bottom of the target. So the middle of the target doesn't look like it's in the same place as it does if your practicing on targets stapled to sticks.

On a practice target at 50, paint the x-ring black. Then prone, zero your pistol on it. Once you're sure on your zero, now - hold a sight picture on the target and make an effort to visually remember "what the target looks like" "on top of your sights." Burn that image into your brain. Then, practice shooting slow fire groups without the center painted black. Once you're confident with that, practice learning how to "see the same way" while shooting the timed strings.

That's probably a good way to practice. Then you just have to do that in the match.

[chuckbradley]

It doesnt get any better than this with Brian and Bruce. I never mastered 50 yards, Standard shooting. One year I would do ok, next year trash them. I always shot too fast. I guess it was the pressure. I could shoot 10/10 head shots at 40 yards but when the target got bigger so did my groups.

Also is there anything to your zero changing from shooting 2 handed, strong hand, weakhand and prone. I have been told especially prone with the gun resting on the ground that this changes the recoil of the gun and thus the location of the barrel when the bullet exits. Same thing would apply with different strengths of grips. IS there any truth to this. You guys would know.

[Jasonub]

when the target is at 50 i use a rifle

I found that targets at that distance needs so much input like. a clear front sight picture, feeling the shot off, lots of follow through. good light grip, being at peace, without thought or doubt.

I too reference on a center hold and zero. Never did get used to the 6 o clock hold.

[cr10x]

I can't really add a lot (compared to the really great action shooters) to what's already posted. I do lot of shooting at 50 yards with bullseye and get a lot of shooters to the level where they can shoot at 50. There are really 2 important issues.

(1) Really see the front sight (or the center of the dot) when shooitng. The relationship of the shights (alighment) is more important than anything else. It's hard to "wobble" out of the 10 ring, you can mis align the sights way out. (do some benched shooting of groups to let your mind know what a good sight picture really looks like).

To do item (1), shooters with open sights need enough visual input to really see the alignment. Be sure you have a sight picture that provides enough contrast and light between the front and rear sights so you can accurately achieve vertical and horizontal alignment. Be sure the rear or front sight width is appropriate for your eyes and the background. (One of the reasons for a neck or bottom hold dependion of the targets or lighting conditions.) Take some time and just do sight pictures and really get used to balancing the "bars of white" on either side of the front sight as you dry fire. Then do the same with the level of the front and rear.

(2) Trigger process (not control) means never having to say I just missed a good shot. Better to have a smooth trigger process and wobble a little than to try and jerk a center shot. Review the "properties of the eye thread". What you are seeing now has aready happened, you can't operate the trigger fast enough to catch up, especially at 50 yards with a small target. Therefore, keep the trigger ahead of the sights. One of the rifle greats said something like "Shoot the first 10 you see and shoot while the sights are moving towards the center". I really like those thoughts.

Just some thoughts on 50 yard shooting, respectfully submitted. Hope this helps.

Cecil Rhodes

Edited March 7, 2006 by cr10x

[benos]

... Keep the trigger ahead of the sights.

Cecil Rhodes

That is beautiful. Thanks. If I were still competing that would become my mantra for accuracy oriented shooting.

Also is there anything to your zero changing from shooting 2 handed, strong hand, weakhand and prone. I have been told especially prone with the gun resting on the ground that this changes the recoil of the gun and thus the location of the barrel when the bullet exits. Same thing would apply with different strengths of grips. IS there any truth to this.

Two-handed standing vs. gun on the ground (or sandbags) - I could never tell any difference in zero. Even if I consciously changed my grip pressure.

Stong/weak hand is another story. Remove your weak hand from your two-handed grip, and the pistol will recoil away from your strong hand. If you're right-handed, your pistol may or may not shoot a little to the left because of this, depending on the orientation of the pistol in your hand and whether or not your arm and shoulder are straight behind the gun.

This affect of removing one hand from a two-handed grip/zero increases if you also cant the pistol. For strong or weak hand shooting, if I did everything perfectly: Kept the pistol straight up, arm, shoulder and body behind the gun, and released the trigger perfectly - I'd shoot to my two-handed zero. But in matches, where I'd tend to rush, I'd usually shoot to the left, strong-handed, and to the right, weak-handed.

be

[cr10x]

If I were still competing that would become my mantra for accuracy oriented shooting.

Thank you for the comment. A lot of shooters come back to me later (sometimes much later) and go "gee, now I finally figued out what you were trying to say".

Thanks again.

[EricW]

Bruce and BE,

Does your aiming point change between prone and freestyle? When I go prone, I have to aim at the "neck" of a metric target to have my shots land in the A zone. I asked the local A/M shooter and he recommended that I place the butt of the gun on the ground to shoot. I'm not sure if that's right or wrong, but that's what I did for long range standards on Sunday. He confirmed that he experienced the same phenomena shooting prone: hits landing much lower than the aiming point.

FWIW, accuracy at distance is one of my strong points (actually, my ONLY strength right now), so I don't *feel* like I'm yanking on the trigger or anything. I like to practice on the plates at 50 - and am actually fairly comfortable at that distance. If I had my druthers, I would never go prone, but unfortunately COF's force you to.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

E

[R112mercer]

Eric,

Theorectically you're POA shouldn't have to be much higher at 50 yards if you're zeroed at 25 yards. Bullets don't drop all that much in between those distances. I shoot .38 HBWC's moving at 700 fps, which have the Cd of a brick, and they only drop 2-3" between 25 and 50.

The real difference (what you were getting at) is the effect the prone position has on your shooting. Besides constricting the arteries in your neck (and therefore reducing the amount of blood that flows to your eyes and brain, dimming your vision), when you're in prone terrain becomes more important. A slight rise in the ground, a tuft of grass, etc., don't present themselves as a problem when you're eyes are 5-6' off the ground. But when your eyes are inches above the ground those things can add up. Most ranges have a tendency to slope up to the targets, and I've noticed at the one venue I shoot at if they haven't cut the grass recently it can really mess you up.

Prop a target in your backyard at normal height, than go to prone and take sight pictures, you'll see the terrain isn't as flat and featureless as you think (you may also see why your wife is on your case to mow the lawn, but that's a different topic... ).

[SRT Driver]

Eric,

Your POI MAY change depending on your eyes.

The lower you get, the more you have to look out of the top of your eye which has the same effect as paralax.

I had the ocular center in my shooting glasses move up 5mm for prone.

Now, freestyle and prone shots hit in the same place.

And if you do not have contant with the ground..either the butt, magwell, or hands, shots can go anywhere.

[benos]

If possible, you definitely want the gun/mag on the ground. (Of course make sure your gun works with the mag on the ground.)

Usually, the fact of "going prone" is a big part of the POI problem. To start with, don't "go prone." Just get down comfortably on the ground, take your time and get in a nice position, and trigger off a 5 shot group, slowfire. Find your POA before each shot, and really line up those sights, looking right at the top of the front blade - feel the trigger come smoothly to the rear. In the absence of a bench, that's how I'd zero my pistol.

Now if you don't shoot to that same spot when "going prone" - carefully analyze everything you do until you find the problem. Sometimes a couple errors can stack up. An awkward, strained position... sight a little low in the notch... and a little jerk on the trigger... will all add up to a low group. As I worked through that stuff, for me, I realized most all my prone shooting problems had the same root as every other shooting mistake - rushing.

It took quite a few years of work before I learned how to go prone and shoot with the same relaxed mindset that I could shoot with while standing.

be

[EricW]

Thanks BE. I'll work through it until I get 'er right.

[EricW]

Range Report:

I identifed two problems:

- my technique

- optical refraction / lens distortion.

The technique I think I have a good solution for. If I roll my head into the gun a bit, things get a lot better.

The optics problem is with my glasses. When I look through the top portion of my shooting glasses (non prescription) it generates enough parallax between the target and my sights to cause a substantial POI shift. I'm not the only one that's had the issue so it's not just a me thing. The minute I removed my glasses last week, my prone "zero" returned to exactly my freestyle "zero".

I just got back from shooting more prone and I tried a pair of old, giant 70's RayBan's. They have a much flatter and thinner lens than my current glasses - which goes a long way toward keeping my zero from shifting. I then went back to my old glasses for another 5 and 5 shots prone. Rolling my head over helps the zero shift, but doesn't totally eliminate it. I haven't worked out the math yet, but I'm pretty sure that distortion and refraction are the culprits.

What I think is going on is that when you look through the top of your lens, you're actually looking through more material. This seems to be particularly true of the "racier" designs that wrap around your face. So, that increases the refraction of the images coming through. And what's happening, because your sights and the target aren't on the same focal plane, the target is actually being refracted more than your sights (distance-wise, they both go through the same angle). Because of that it *appears* that you've lined your sights up correctly on the target when in actuality they are much lower on the target because the target image was refracted down in relation to the sights.

The "solution," at least for me, appears to be to go to a thinner, flatter lens. The flatter lens will more closely match how my eye pivots and the thinner lenses minimize the amount of refraction that takes place. I'm trying to hook up with the owner of Post 4 Opticsand I'm going to likely end up with a pair of huge, dorky, shotgun style glasses here soon.

And yes, I'm fully aware that I'm throwing money at the problem. This is one of the few times, where I feel like I'm going to come out ahead in changing equipment rather than spending ammo and dryfire time trying to fix it. The glasses need to fit *me*. Maybe I'm not finding all the answers yet, but I'd like to at least *think* I'm on the right path.

FWIW...

[Merlin Orr]

snip> And yes, I'm fully aware that I'm throwing money at the problem. This is one of the few times, where I feel like I'm going to come out ahead in changing equipment rather than spending ammo and dryfire time trying to fix it. The glasses need to fit *me*. Maybe I'm not finding all the answers yet, but I'd like to at least *think* I'm on the right path.

FWIW...

If your glasses are not giving you a true picture of "reality"... all the dryfire in the world will not overcome a distorted view of the target..?? Money well and necessarily spent.

[BigDave]

Tony Holmes recommended these (which I still haven't purchased, but am damn near) for this very issue that EricW describes. The adjustable bridge may be the ticket here.

Edited March 24, 2006 by BigDave

[EricW]

Glad I'm not the only one. The post 4's are a tad cheaper at $110. Extra lenses are $45.

I spoke with the owner for probably 45 minutes. And the problem is polycarbonate lenses. Polycarb is pretty poor optically. The Post 4's use a cast, optical grade resin. The difference being that stress is not molded into the lenses so they are much clearer and have a constant index of refraction throughout the lens.

The adjustable bridge on the Decots may be the sh*t. Looking through the center of the glasses pretty much elminates the problem.

[SRT Driver]

Polycarbonate is bad, curved Polycarbonate is worse.

The best that I've found is flat glass. But that is not something I'd want on my face if something blows up.

Try your local optical shop and find a frame that is essentially flat and have them put a clear, non-prescriction lens in. While mine are prescription, non-prescription should be cheaper.

High zoot they are not..but they work.