Optical Properties Of The Eye

[iweiny]

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/annex2.htm

This is just one section of the "Army Marksmanship Training Guide" posted at that site. This really hit home with all the "visual" discussions I have read here and in Brian's book.

Perhaps it will help someone else,

Ira

[kevin c]

Nice summary, but kinda technical. It took a bit of wading even for me (an MD).

[chp5]

Nice summary, but kinda technical. It took a bit of wading even for me (an MD).

Wow - in that case, I may have to pass

[kevin c]

Nah, I gotta rep for being sorta dense...

[Pierruiggi]

Very interesting read!

Now, I noticed something that got me thinking, so be aware that the following is a far fetched thought that I had. Please think about it and give your opinion, or better yet, scientific data.

The article says that because of the way or eye works, we don't see "continually", but in frames, that later our brain procesess to give us the illusion of fluid continuos motion. Much like a movie I suppose.

It says our "frame rate" is between 40 to 50 frames per second, in a healthy, normally functioning eye.

You know where this is going, right? High speed shot calling.

Let's say you're shooting a Bill drill with .16 splits. According to that article, you'd have between 7 and 8 "frames" for your subconscious to aim (measure/gauge sight correlation to target) and calling the shot. That's amazing.

There are people that can even fire monster .10 or even sub .10 splits with called shots. That's less than 5 "frames" to do the above. That's even more amazing.

Now, the theory/question.

The article says there are circumstances (the article mentions only physical circumstances) that can lower your "frame rate" to about 20 or 30 fps (a 40% to %50 decrease in effectiveness), like eye strain. I noticed that when my eyesight is strained (not in shooting though) I tend to see things like in a mild "blur", like still pictures... The fluidity is lost.

What interest me, is the opposite.

Do you think that when in certain mental states (being in the zone) the framerate of our eyes increases?

That would also support the experience of "time slowing down" whe in the zone...

As I've said, I don't have any evidence of this, just some far fetched thought...

[Flexmoney]

Pierruiggi,

Wrap you head around this...

Take what you are thinking about above...then, figure in reaction speed.

You've likely done some drills with the timer...gun gripped, on target, trigger prepped...at the BEEP, break the shot as soon as possible. You likely know that if you are in the 0.15-0.25 second range then that is a good reaction time for an auditory stimulus. And, from what people say...reaction to a visual stimulus may be slower...

So...throw in the "frame rate"...processing of the data...visual reaction time...then, the time to respond...

Something cool is going on...

[eric nielsen]

If you just want to know about eyeglasses, these are a little more simple:

http://www.essilor.com/Products/VisionAndV...ts/LaVision.htm

http://www.essilor.com/Products/VisionAndV...s/ametropia.htm

http://www.essilor.com/Products/VisionAndV.../presbyopia.htm

http://www.opticsplanet.net/prescription-s...asses-info.html

Not that I've got any grad-degrees in the subject but from what I have learned about optics and human vision, I'd say your attention & your desire to see something are much more important than anything else. The brain directs and the eyes obey.

[Pierruiggi]

Flex,

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking we HAVE to increase that framerate somehow in order to see the shots. I mean, with a .15 split... That's 7 frames to: watch the sight lift from the previous shot, watch it return to target, confirm it's on target and watch it lift again... I'm thinking that somehow, our brain "opens up" to more data, more visual input, more framerate.

So, my theory is now twofold:

A. Our brain, or at least, the brains of highly developed, experienced, trained shooters, somehow get more data, input and framerate from the eyes. Probably some event triggered by the subconscious.

OR

B. Check this out... Our brain gets the same 40 to 50 frames per second from the eyes but... Our subconscious process that little information and calculates WHERE that data will be in the next couple hundreths of a second and presents it in the form of "additional" frames.

.........................No, I'm not under the influence of any substance.......................

Of course, there might be some other possibilities, but so far I'm inclined to believe that either we are A. actually, in reality expanding our senses, quite literally or B. Seeing a highly complex illusion.

Not matter what is right, it amazes me how FAST our brain (subconcious) can process data.

By the way, I don't want to derail this since I'm truly fascinated by this new "discovery", but I thought reaction time was faster for visual inputs? I mean, in Cowboy Fastdraw, don't the competitors react to a lightbulb that is switched on (as opposed to IPSC where we react to a sound signal). I mean, those guys and girls are pulling quarter second shots from the holster... (yes, yes, I know I know... fanning and all that... but it still WAY less ready that being on target with trigger prepped). I'd like to take some fastdraw shooters and make them do the drill you mentioned. Gun on target, finger on trigger and react to the signal. And I like to measure them with both a sound signal and a visual signal, and see how their reaction times compare. Same with IPSC shooters too. Probably the fastdraw guys will take awhile to accustom themselves to reacting to sound, and the IPSC guys will take longer to react to a visual signal; but once they get "in the mood", it'd be interesting to compare their respective response times.

[cz75ipsc]

Interesting thread.

Our subconscious process that little information and calculates WHERE that data will be in the next couple hundreths of a second and presents it in the form of "additional" frames.

Dunno if this applies here, but... I read somewhere that the way a batter hits a baseball is by actually "seeing into the future" *insert wierd 70's science fiction music*. The mind is clearly able to calculate additional frames.

[Flexmoney]

The idea that I was getting at wasn't so much that the brain was building extra frames and inserting them into the gaps in present time...

It was that, we were/are in a state of awareness that allows us to gather more (subconscious) information ahead of our action...

Our experience tells us that the shot we are making isn't going to turn out as planned...so, there is already a (mental) trigger to fire a make-up shot as/during/before the current shots cycle-time is complete.

(I like the increased frame rate thinking too. I just don't think that it stands alone.)

I'd say your attention & your desire to see something are much more important than anything else. The brain directs and the eyes obey.

Nicely put.

[iweiny]

Wow! What a great insight, or theory, or whatever. I was taking the article more at face value.

For example the little drill they have you run to tell for eye domanance. This quote in particular meant a lot for me.

"The fact that a person has two eyes does not always mean that he also has binocular vision.

There are instances when the eye which has the poorest vision is not included in the act of vision and the person actually uses just one eye, the better one."...

I have noticed that I will go back and forth in sqinting my left eye. And I am pretty strongly right eye domanant. I think I perform my best when I have both eyes open but I wonder if my vision in my left eye is better sometimes and so having both eyes open messes me up...

Perhaps this could help others who are trying to shoot with both eyes open.

The article also talks about shifting the eyes, staring, eye strain... Basically it just really made me think.

And best of all it is writen from a shooting perspective. Which was pretty cool in itself.

Ira

[Bear23]

Once you figure that our motor nerves conduct at velocities of right around 100m/s and that it takes about 4-5 milliseconds to polarize a nerve to fire......

That is right around 0.015-.025 seconds to just get the impulse to fire at your fingertip....

Sooo...Things are actually happening faster than what our body can actually produce......that where the brain comes in and the ability to 'know' what is going to happen. Visual acutity and decision making must be taking place in the thousands of a second...

hmmmmmm.

Though some of our motor nerves can fire at up to 300 m/s....That speeds that portion up a little more,

[jkrispies]

Once you figure that our motor nerves conduct at velocities of right around 100m/s and that it takes about 4-5 milliseconds to polarize a nerve to fire......

That is right around 0.015-.025 seconds to just get the impulse to fire at your fingertip....

Sooo...Things are actually happening faster than what our body can actually produce......that where the brain comes in and the ability to 'know' what is going to happen. Visual acutity and decision making must be taking place in the thousands of a second...

Here's some more gobbledy-goo I've learned about brain theory as an educator:

Through rote training, thought process can actually be removed from the equation so that the physical action is purely mechanical, something like a reaction but in a more complex manner. This is true to the point that this "thought process" will take place in a different part of the brain: the brain stem (and sometimes even the spinal cord itself), rather than the more typical parts of the brain.

In fact, "multi-tasking" is impossible in the purest sense as the brain can only truely process one thing at a time, but by relegating extremely common tasks (for instance, walking) to the brain stem, it frees up the brain to concentrate on other things as we simultaneously perform more mundane functions (hence, we can walk and figure out a puzzle at the same time). This can be true of very complex tasks, as well as simple ones.

For instance... Think of times that you've been driving home after a late night at work. This is a job you've had for years and you've taken the same route every day throughout that stretch of time. You're super tired, you pull out of your usual parking spot at work, and you pull into your driveway, hit the garage door opener, and you have a "What the h*ll???" moment as you suddenly realize that you're home already and you can't remember driving there.

Ever done that?

In essence, you're brain checked out, and you just drove home based off of brain stem rote training given your years of driving that some route over and over again.

Scary, but it happens.

Anyway, relating that to shooting: if you've done a draw-and-fire so many times that it's one of these rote actions, it seems to me that it should be faster than if you are literally thinking about it. Why? Because the brainstem/spinal cord is physically closer to your hands/arms than your brain. That means less physical distance that the nerve pulses need to travel too perform the action, resulting in a faster time.

[KevinB]

Back in my karate days (when humankind was still drawing on cave walls) the instructor used to speak a lot on “action without thought.” He would use the analogy of not having to use any mental processing to yank your hand off of a hot stove, and that we should endeavor to make all of our basic techniques like that one through countless repetitions. By removing the brain from the equasion, it would be almost superhumanly fast.