Ron Ankeny Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 One of our forum members asked me, "Why do we need L10 and low cap prod?" I know the issue has been beaten to death, but I typed out a regular dissertation on my thoughts of divisions at the local level as it applies to my home state. I thought I would share my thoughts here in the relative safety of a rebuttal free free forum. Perhaps it's a waste of bandwidth, but here goes: There are 87 USPSA members in WY. According to my data base, about one third of them shoot L10 with a single stack and 10 round mags on a regular basis. While SS Provisional looks like a good thing on the surface, I doubt it will see much action in Wyoming, but I am in favor of giving it a try. The vast majority of single stack shooters with whom I have spoken have no desire to retire their 10 round mags in favor of eight round magazines. I suppose a few new shooters will come into the sport with SS type equipment, but considering the round counts per array, it won't be long before they buy 10 round mags for obvious reasons. About one third of the shooters in Wyoming are non-USPSA members, and we are trying to get them to pay some dues and become actively involved. To the best of my knowledge almost all of them are shooting production guns or single stacks with the rare exception of a couple of guys who shoot a Glock with a high cap magazine in Limited. In the case of our club and at least one of the two neighboring clubs, the majority of non-USPSA members (potential members) are shooting single stacks with 10 round McCormick mags, with the balance shooting Production gear. Without the efforts of new shooters/non-members (set up, tear down, prop maintenance, etc.) we might as well shut the doors because the sport would surely die. With the demise of the AWB, lifting of the round count restrictions on Production would be a good thing for the shooters in Wyoming, but what is good for Wyoming might not be so good for California. I suppose that works both ways. Elimination of L10 would really harm the Wind River Practical Shooters, Ghost Town Shooters, Jackson Hole Gun Club, and Western Wyoming Practical Shooters. For those who favor elimination of divisions, in Wyoming we could dump revolver division altogether and it would have no ill effects on USPSA members in Wyoming. However, there is a contingent of wheelgunners in Eastern Idaho that actively support Wyoming clubs and dumping revolver division would piss them off no end. The last thing I would want to do is to alienatate guys like Dick and Duck just because the stats guys don't want another division to manage. Some of the nicest guys in this sport shoot wheelguns. If we can't support them the least we can do is to just leave them alone. Other than revolver, the lowest number of USPSA shooters here will be found in Open Division. I kid you not. If any division could go away in Wyoming (other than revolver), with minimal impact on USPSA members, it would be Open Division. Of course the open gunners are heavily involved in the administration of two of our most active clubs, and I am seeing a very small growth (one or two a year) in Open as the baby boomers get into bifocals. Still, if it's just a numbers game, revolver and open would go in the toilet here. When we have a larger match in Wyoming, say our state championship, Hole Shoot, etc., having so many divisions is a pain in the neck as far as developing an awards structure. With so few shooters and so many divisions, the talent pool is horribly diluted. But as long as guys don't mind shooting without enough shooters per class/division to award a prize, who cares? As for shooters downloading a fat gun to run from Limited shooters by hiding in L10, we don't have that problem in Wyoming, period. I doubt the problem exists in Montana, or Idaho either. Redovian and Zopfi could answer that issue for their respective states. I did on one occasion watch a genuine honest to gosh sandbagger ply his trade at a shoot in Jackson. That was several years ago and the guy hasn't been back. A scum bag is a scum bag and IMHO, restructuring divisions is an over reaction to keeping the slime at bay. I am very much aware the number of shooters in Wyoming constitutes a very small percentage of the total USPSA membership. But I believe the problems we see at the local level as far as recruitment and retention of new shooters is similar to what exists nationwide. Frankly, at the local level (level one matches) what we need is a place for all shooters to participate and feel welcome with the gear they have, or with what they can buy cheaply. My priority is seeing the sport grow and the structure we now have suits that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I am very much aware the number of shooters in Wyoming constitutes a very small percentage of the total USPSA membership. But I believe the problems we see at the local level as far as recruitment and retention of new shooters is similar to what exists nationwide. Frankly, at the local level (level one matches) what we need is a place for all shooters to participate and feel welcome with the gear they have, or with what they can buy cheaply. My priority is seeing the sport grow and the structure we now have suits that purpose. +1. The 54 shooters who turned out for our January club match in NJ are a tiny fraction of USPSA membership. We had 22 Production shooters, 16 Limited, 10 L-10, 4 Open, 2 Revolver and one Single-Stack. Usually L-10 beats out Limited --- but not this month. We're not just seeing these numbers because of gun laws; rather the demographic at my club is a fairly even mix of dedicated USPSA shooters and club members who shoot USPSA because it's offered there..... My priorities are in line with Ron's ---- I want to continue to play this game for years to come..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yup Old Bridge is seeing the same rough numbers. The outdoor matches get 60 to 70 people, and Open is down to 7 to 5 shooters per match. L10 attracts 17 to 12 people, Production 26 to 19, Limited 23 to 19. Most matches we dont have ANY revo shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I shoot a SS in L10 and hove no desire to switch to SS division. It's not because of the eight round mags, it's because of holster and mag carrier selections. I like that I can compete in a division with "race" type equipment, without spending the money to buy a limited or open gun. SS division would keep me from doing this. This is a part of the argument that I don't see addressed too much. If SS division had no restrictions on holsters and such, I would probably switch to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Well stated Ron! I was pretty sure nothing new could be stated in this age old debate but I stand corrected. Thanks for taking the time to work up the stats and to share it with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 knightkrawler00 I agree with you 100%. It's the cheapo racing that L-10 allows that is the biggest draw. Not everyone wants to spend the big bucks on a Limited setup, but a lot of folks seem to like using race rigs. I know I have no interest in having to reach back to my butt crack for mags with the SS/Prod rules. Trying for crossover IDPA shooters is a good idea, but I have no interest in carry gear at a USPSA match. If I did, then I'd shoot IDPA and wear tactical underwear. Is L-10 a training ground for soon-to-be Limited shooters? I don't know for sure, but it worked that way for me. Right now my wife is shooting my L-10 gun and race rig (good excuse for all new equipment for me) in L-10 and I figure she'll move to Limited in a few years. If L-10 is killed off before that, then she'll just move to Limited sooner unless we let our USPSA memberships expire and switch to outlaw matches. I think it's at least partially true that any damage to L-10 will result in at least some future damage to Limited. Personally I wish the divisions would just be left alone. If there aren't enough shooters to award prizes, then so what? The shooters can switch divisions or recruit new shooters if it matters to them. Can't see that it hurts anybody at all, sort of like Revolver. We only have to look at the much more successful Cowboy shooting to see that having a bunch of divisions so that most "blocks" of shooters have a place to belong is the way to go. I wish I could communicate any of this as well as Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Is L-10 a training ground for soon-to-be Limited shooters? I don't know for sure, but it worked that way for me. It did for me, too. Personally I wish the divisions would just be left alone. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Good info, Ron! Thanks... Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Ron: I don't mean to steal your thread, but add one more USPSA member to your statistics in Wyo. I work up around Pinedale and would love to find a place to shoot a match on the weekends. I haven't found any place close yet. Any ideas?? Oh and I don't care what division I just want to shoot! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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