USPSA 3 gun division questions

[beastmode_05]

so i run pretty exclusively 2011's which i know are limited/LO. what division and what are the rifle and shotgun meta's for the divisions im able to be in for uspsa multigun with my 2011's.

trying to figure out if its worth the effort and money to make the jump to multi i have a 5.56 aero precision build and a versamax tactical.

[RJH]

Idk what meta means, but your guns should fit in tacops or modified or limited depending on what optics you have where. 

 

Type of handgun doesn't matter in 3 gun, just how it is outfitted 

[42ATK]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

Idk what meta means, but your guns should fit in tacops or modified or limited depending on what optics you have where. 

 

Type of handgun doesn't matter in 3 gun, just how it is outfitted 

Most effective tactics available

 

 effectively whats the most competitive

[RJH]

1 hour ago, 42ATK said:

Most effective tactics available

 

 effectively whats the most competitive

 

 

Ahhh so it an acronym....... Last time I asked about an acronym I got probation.............

[Joe4d]

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Ahhh so it an acronym....... Last time I asked about an acronym I got probation.............

Sounds like you didnt get this years Mall Ninja's almanac of new Timmy terms. 

[travail]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:54 AM, beastmode_05 said:

so i run pretty exclusively 2011's which i know are limited/LO. what division and what are the rifle and shotgun meta's for the divisions im able to be in for uspsa multigun with my 2011's.

trying to figure out if its worth the effort and money to make the jump to multi i have a 5.56 aero precision build and a versamax tactical.

With the gear you have, you could likely be in limited, modified, or tac-ops. I would suggest not getting anything new prior to your first match. Just show up to a match and ask others what they use and if you can try their gear for a stage. The multigun crew is generally super friendly.

[beastmode_05]

4 hours ago, travail said:

With the gear you have, you could likely be in limited, modified, or tac-ops. I would suggest not getting anything new prior to your first match. Just show up to a match and ask others what they use and if you can try their gear for a stage. The multigun crew is generally super friendly.

thank you i will do that. i was just trying to avoid getting hooked and wanting new gear and/or getting outgunned haha

[mpeltier]

https://uspsa.org/rules

 

Appendix D1 thru 6

Edited May 3 by mpeltier
added text

[RJH]

2 hours ago, mpeltier said:

https://uspsa.org/rules

 

Appendix D1 thru 6

Yep, also need to look at uml and really whatever match a person is going to shoot. Because, 3 gun

[mmc45414]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:46 PM, travail said:

With the gear you have, you could likely be in limited, modified, or tac-ops. I would suggest not getting anything new prior to your first match. Just show up to a match and ask others what they use and if you can try their gear for a stage. The multigun crew is generally super friendly.

Yup, another approach is to eyeball what the match director(s) who are setting up the course of fire(s) are using (within reason...).  Optics are probably the most of the variable.  I started out using a RDO on my rifle and nothing on my pistol or shotgun.  Then I migrated to a LPVO on the rifle.  Then I got a RDO on my pistol, and decided to put a longer tube and a RDO on my shotgun, I figured if I am not going to win TacOps I might as well not win in Open.

 

And I agree about people being willing to load you gear, especially the shotguns. 

[beastmode_05]

my 12 Ga. versamax is stock with an 8+1 tube. feels like that's the bigger deal. my speed reload skills are non-existant. is 20 gauge the better move anyways? 

[RJH]

7 hours ago, beastmode_05 said:

my 12 Ga. versamax is stock with an 8+1 tube. feels like that's the bigger deal. my speed reload skills are non-existant. is 20 gauge the better move anyways? 

 

No on the 20 gauge 

 

 

Shotguns can be a rabbit hole. First thing to understand is that to completely outfit a shotgun and buy a bunch of mag holders is going to be fairly expensive. If you shoot matches that don't have huge stages you can get by with less shotgun shell holders and it's not a big deal. The bigger the stage is though the more you have to spend on holders for deuces or quads. 

 

 

The other option is to just bite the bullet and get a box fed shotgun. That can be done on the cheap, or for somewhat expensive. Even if I was starting out if I was going to spend money on buying a new gun and rig it would be a box fed gun. Because in reality, while the shotgun May cost a touch more if you don't go the cheap route, the total is not far off from buying a decent tube fit gun and a bunch of mag holders 

 

 

 

All that said, I would probably just shoot my first match with what you have. Then see how much you want to spend, and probably buy a 12 round tube for the shotgun you have. That and a couple of mag holders will get you through a lot of local matches

[beastmode_05]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

No on the 20 gauge 

 

 

Shotguns can be a rabbit hole. First thing to understand is that to completely outfit a shotgun and buy a bunch of mag holders is going to be fairly expensive. If you shoot matches that don't have huge stages you can get by with less shotgun shell holders and it's not a big deal. The bigger the stage is though the more you have to spend on holders for deuces or quads. 

 

 

The other option is to just bite the bullet and get a box fed shotgun. That can be done on the cheap, or for somewhat expensive. Even if I was starting out if I was going to spend money on buying a new gun and rig it would be a box fed gun. Because in reality, while the shotgun May cost a touch more if you don't go the cheap route, the total is not far off from buying a decent tube fit gun and a bunch of mag holders 

 

 

 

All that said, I would probably just shoot my first match with what you have. Then see how much you want to spend, and probably buy a 12 round tube for the shotgun you have. That and a couple of mag holders will get you through a lot of local matches

thanks i think that's what i was after. Regardless, im going to be in a division that box mag shotguns are legal so huge disadvantage. ill shoot a few matches wherever they put me and dig down the rabbit hole of box fed shotties if i really like it and maybe trade out my versamax tactical.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, beastmode_05 said:

thanks i think that's what i was after. Regardless, im going to be in a division that box mag shotguns are legal so huge disadvantage. ill shoot a few matches wherever they put me and dig down the rabbit hole of box fed shotties if i really like it and maybe trade out my versamax tactical.

 

 

Why would you be in a division where box fed shotguns are legal? None of the equipment that you listed would put you in open

[beastmode_05]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:21 PM, RJH said:

 

 

Why would you be in a division where box fed shotguns are legal? None of the equipment that you listed would put you in open

i must have misunderstood you! i thought you were saying that the box fed were legal in all the divisions i would be running in. i was like if thats the case screw it ill replace the versamax. the way i read the regs is no shotgun restrictions so thats also why i thought that

[RJH]

2 hours ago, beastmode_05 said:

i must have misunderstood you! i thought you were saying that the box fed were legal in all the divisions i would be running in. i was like if thats the case screw it ill replace the versamax. the way i read the regs is no shotgun restrictions so thats also why i thought that

 

No, box fed shotguns are only allowed in open division in every 3 gun match I have ever heard of. That's why your equipment you have now would probably work well in limited, tac ops, or modified depending on the accessories you have on them

 

 

After rereading what I had written I can see how I made that a little confusing. Basically what I was getting at was if you were starting from scratch you end up having as much in a good tube fed gun and mag holders as you do in a box fed gun, so at that point I would just buy a box fed gun and shoot open.

 

People will tell you that they do that sort of stuff on the cheap, but when you start adding everything up you get to about three grand pretty quick either way for quality stuff lol. So you're spending three grand on a Benelli that's ready to go and a bunch of quad loaders, or your spending three grand on something like a dissident and some magazines. Of course that would be starting from scratch, which you are not. 

 

Or you can be an oddball like me and shoot open for the poors with a box fed pump. But that ain't for everyone LOL

Edited May 6 by RJH

[beastmode_05]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

No, box fed shotguns are only allowed in open division in every 3 gun match I have ever heard of. That's why your equipment you have now would probably work well in limited, tac ops, or modified depending on the accessories you have on them

 

 

After rereading what I had written I can see how I made that a little confusing. Basically what I was getting at was if you were starting from scratch you end up having as much in a good tube fed gun and mag holders as you do in a box fed gun, so at that point I would just buy a box fed gun and shoot open.

 

People will tell you that they do that sort of stuff on the cheap, but when you start adding everything up you get to about three grand pretty quick either way for quality stuff lol. So you're spending three grand on a Benelli that's ready to go and a bunch of quad loaders, or your spending three grand on something like a dissident and some magazines. Of course that would be starting from scratch, which you are not. 

 

Or you can be an oddball like me and shoot open for the poors with a box fed pump. But that ain't for everyone LOL

got you thanks for clearing that up for me! Yea open is a monster I'd like to stay away from. to rich for me im trying to have fun as a poor guy LOL. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, beastmode_05 said:

got you thanks for clearing that up for me! Yea open is a monster I'd like to stay away from. to rich for me im trying to have fun as a poor guy LOL. 

 

 

Open is actually the division for the poors. I only wish I had discovered that earlier. But then all the options now were not available when I started 

[beastmode_05]

20 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Open is actually the division for the poors. I only wish I had discovered that earlier. But then all the options now were not available when I started 

explain plz haha 

[RJH]

5 hours ago, beastmode_05 said:

explain plz haha 

 

 

Start with the pistol. It's three gun so you're not shooting major ammo. So you can go with a plastic fantastic like a Glock with a slide riding optic, and toss a small comp on it if you want and be very very competitive. Even without the comp. You can run 27 round pmags that cost about 20 bucks a piece, or if you want you can build a bigger mag depending upon the rules (uml allows whatever, so a 33 round Glock mag is completely okay and still only cost 40 bucks or something). But you're not buying 140 mm mags that to get 24 rounds you're spending 100 or so dollars each on. Most three gun matches I shoot you end up shooting much more distance steel or hoser close paper, so what little you would give up in splits (if any), to a 2011 is basically negated. I use Glock as an example, but there are other plastic guns that would work as well. 

 

The rifle build is going to be basically identical to a tacops or modified build, with the exception of you can add a secondary dot if you want. You can also add stuff like a bipod, but that's legal in modified so no cost difference there. And if you want you can use a drum mag, though depending on matches that might be legal in modified or tac ops as well, so no change in cost. 

 

 

Shotguns we've kind of discussed. I do better overall with my magfed pump than I ever did with a gun loading by hand. But, while people tend to try a lot of different tube fed shotguns most end up with something along the lines of a Benelli or maybe a Beretta because they want it to work, so the gun is not real cheap. Then they spend several hundred dollars in quad loading gear, and then they spend a few hundred bucks modifying the shotgun for ease of loading, magazine capacity, etc. Some people do that themselves, and sometimes those people that do that themselves end up getting to buy a new shotgun . So for the same Total money you could end up buying a box fed open shotgun. Of course you can buy a cheap box fed open shotgun, but they won't be as reliable as a high end one. However, they'll still probably be faster than most people loading a tube gun. 

 

 

 

Speaking for me personally, I don't think I ever won a match shooting tack ops. I'm a midpack shooter, nothing special. Then one day I decided I was tired of dicking with shotguns and iron sight pistols and bought a magfed pump and a dot for my pistol. Since I was in open I went ahead and bought some big sticks for my plastic gun. I still just shoot my beater AR. After doing that I've actually won overall at a couple of matches, beating people that normally beat me. I'm still just a midpack shooter, but I took out stuff that was costing me time for some illusion of saving me money. 

 

If I have 3000 bucks in all three of my guns together, with the accessories I use it would shock the hell out of me. I know more than one person that shoots modified and has over $3,000 in his shotgun gear alone. 

 

I'm not saying to do it the way I do it, but open is not expensive compared to the other divisions like it used to be

 

 

Edit to add: anytime I said mag fed regarding shotguns, I mean box fed 

Edited May 8 by RJH

[beastmode_05]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Start with the pistol. It's three gun so you're not shooting major ammo. So you can go with a plastic fantastic like a Glock with a slide riding optic, and toss a small comp on it if you want and be very very competitive. Even without the comp. You can run 27 round pmags that cost about 20 bucks a piece, or if you want you can build a bigger mag depending upon the rules (uml allows whatever, so a 33 round Glock mag is completely okay and still only cost 40 bucks or something). But you're not buying 140 mm mags that to get 24 rounds you're spending 100 or so dollars each on. Most three gun matches I shoot you end up shooting much more distance steel or hoser close paper, so what little you would give up in splits (if any), to a 2011 is basically negated. I use Glock as an example, but there are other plastic guns that would work as well. 

 

The rifle build is going to be basically identical to a tacops or modified build, with the exception of you can add a secondary dot if you want. You can also add stuff like a bipod, but that's legal in modified so no cost difference there. And if you want you can use a drum mag, though depending on matches that might be legal in modified or tac ops as well, so no change in cost. 

 

 

Shotguns we've kind of discussed. I do better overall with my magfed pump than I ever did with a gun loading by hand. But, while people tend to try a lot of different tube fed shotguns most end up with something along the lines of a Benelli or maybe a Beretta because they want it to work, so the gun is not real cheap. Then they spend several hundred dollars in quad loading gear, and then they spend a few hundred bucks modifying the shotgun for ease of loading, magazine capacity, etc. Some people do that themselves, and sometimes those people that do that themselves end up getting to buy a new shotgun . So for the same Total money you could end up buying a box fed open shotgun. Of course you can buy a cheap box fed open shotgun, but they won't be as reliable as a high end one. However, they'll still probably be faster than most people loading a tube gun. 

 

 

 

Speaking for me personally, I don't think I ever won a match shooting tack ops. I'm a midpack shooter, nothing special. Then one day I decided I was tired of dicking with shotguns and iron sight pistols and bought a magfed pump and a dot for my pistol. Since I was in open I went ahead and bought some big sticks for my plastic gun. I still just shoot my beater AR. After doing that I've actually won overall at a couple of matches, beating people that normally beat me. I'm still just a midpack shooter, but I took out stuff that was costing me time for some illusion of saving me money. 

 

If I have 3000 bucks in all three of my guns together, with the accessories I use it would shock the hell out of me. I know more than one person that shoots modified and has over $3,000 in his shotgun gear alone. 

 

I'm not saying to do it the way I do it, but open is not expensive compared to the other divisions like it used to be

makes alot of sense when you put it that way gotta find a modded out canik and a good box fed. ill do some research on what good boxfed shottys are on here but any suggestions are welcomed i always like the look of the saiga 12's idk how good or bad they are in practice

[DavidSeavey]

if you have an AR10 already (dpms pattern i mean) look into genesis arms box fed shotgun upper setup as it'll fit on an ar10 lower

[mmc45414]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:34 PM, RJH said:

Open is actually the division for the poors. I only wish I had discovered that earlier. But then all the options now were not available when I started 

 

On 5/4/2024 at 5:55 PM, RJH said:

All that said, I would probably just shoot my first match with what you have. Then see how much you want to spend, and probably buy a 12 round tube for the shotgun you have.

 

I wouldn't worry about not getting into open with the equipment you have.  We are all by nature competitive, but realistically you are not going to win in any division until you gain some experience, so free yourself from that worry and get some match experience.  I was like you, wanting to optimize the equipment and worry about divisions, turns out that was NOT why I didn't win... 

 

Buying a cheap long tube for the shotgun you have might put you into a higher division, but the less loading you do the better you will do.  I am several years into this and just now struggling to get into the top half.  At the club I typically shoot at only a few of the top shooters stay in TacOps, because they are good enough to place well with the lesser equipment.

 

ETA: Another consideration is par times.  If the club you go shoot at sets par times on the stages, and you time out while trying to reload a shotgun, it will not matter what division you are in.

Edited May 8 by mmc45414

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, mmc45414 said:

 

 

 

 

ETA: Another consideration is par times.  If the club you go shoot at sets par times on the stages, and you time out while trying to reload a shotgun, it will not matter what division you are in.

 

 

Good point right here. This was a key factor in me deciding to just bite the bullet and switch to open. One of the clubs I shoot at tends to have a combination of tough shots, long stages, and for the stage length, relatively short stage times. 

 

After I switched to open, timing out was no longer an issue, and I realized that shooting open is really no more expensive than shooting any of the other divisions. I was looking very hard at putting together a really good modified style shotgun and in doing so realized I could shoot open for the same money, or really quite a bit less

[RJH]

10 hours ago, beastmode_05 said:

makes alot of sense when you put it that way gotta find a modded out canik and a good box fed. ill do some research on what good boxfed shottys are on here but any suggestions are welcomed i always like the look of the saiga 12's idk how good or bad they are in practice

 

Dissidents are expensive but seem to be the top of the heap in box fed guns right now. I have no experience with the Genesis, but I've heard decent things. And with a little work The Rock island/typhoon Turkish guns seem to be pretty dang reliable. 

 

With any of them though you'll need to figure out what ammo they like and stick with that. The lack of consistent ammo was one of the deciding factors in me going with the box fed pump. That situation may have improved by this point though

Edited May 8 by RJH