Curt_Hays Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Any ideas why my pistol has such excessive muzzle flip? I generally know how to tune and work on all of the CZ pistols out there. Having said that, I realize that I'm asking a generally vague question in the hope that someone will think of something I haven't. Shadow Line Compact is basically a Shadow 1 Compact, so it stands to reason that it would be rather similar to the new S2C. If the S2C had the flip of this one, it wouldn't sell. I shot it side by side with a worn out, rental CZ75 Compact, and the standard Compact was similar to a P-07. My SLC has enough muzzle flip to rotate in my hand on every shot. I have used every different recoil spring I could get my hands on, and none of them make a noticeable difference (including the 22-lb option from Wolff. I had the slide cerakoted, and the muzzle flip was noticeably flatter until friction wore of the new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 What grips do you use? I used to have a normal SL, and it was rather difficult to control at speed with the original thin aluminium grips and smooth front and back. Depends on your hand size and strength. Lok palmswell bogies plus grip tape front/back should help. Springs, mine was set up with 13 lbs main, 11 lbs recoil. Heavy mainspring could contribute to muzzle flip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywizzle Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 2 hours ago, Curt_Hays said: Any ideas why my pistol has such excessive muzzle flip? I generally know how to tune and work on all of the CZ pistols out there. Having said that, I realize that I'm asking a generally vague question in the hope that someone will think of something I haven't. Shadow Line Compact is basically a Shadow 1 Compact, so it stands to reason that it would be rather similar to the new S2C. If the S2C had the flip of this one, it wouldn't sell. I shot it side by side with a worn out, rental CZ75 Compact, and the standard Compact was similar to a P-07. My SLC has enough muzzle flip to rotate in my hand on every shot. I have used every different recoil spring I could get my hands on, and none of them make a noticeable difference (including the 22-lb option from Wolff. I had the slide cerakoted, and the muzzle flip was noticeably flatter until friction wore of the new. Could the muzzle flip difference be caused due to the shadow line compact having an alloy frame and the old CZ compact possibly having a steel frame? It would be 32.8 oz to 28.7. I would try the reduced power recoil springs from CGW. You could also add a slight bit of weight with a steel guide rod. Also, as mentioned above, different grips could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f2benny Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 I have to assume the fact that it has an aluminum frame is contributing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 On 2/10/2024 at 9:52 PM, Siberian said: What grips do you use? I used to have a normal SL, and it was rather difficult to control at speed with the original thin aluminium grips and smooth front and back. Depends on your hand size and strength. Lok palmswell bogies plus grip tape front/back should help. Springs, mine was set up with 13 lbs main, 11 lbs recoil. Heavy mainspring could contribute to muzzle flip. LOK Bogeys, and I have tried every recoil spring I can find. Main spring is 13lb blue one from Cajun. Not sure how heavy spring would contribute to more flip. Please help me understand that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 17 hours ago, f2benny said: I have to assume the fact that it has an aluminum frame is contributing. Possible, fair point. Why isn't the P-07 having a similar issue though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 23 hours ago, Haywizzle said: Could the muzzle flip difference be caused due to the shadow line compact having an alloy frame and the old CZ compact possibly having a steel frame? It would be 32.8 oz to 28.7. I would try the reduced power recoil springs from CGW. You could also add a slight bit of weight with a steel guide rod. Also, as mentioned above, different grips could help. It has a steel guide rod. Please help me understand how a lighter spring would reduce muzzle flip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy9 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I have a S2 Compact and a 75 compact. Both have very manageable recoil, and with a good grip, almost none. The S2C has an alloy frame, while the 75 Compact is steel, and i don't think the difference is really noticeable. A friend of mine put up a video review of my S2 Compact and he did one on a PO1, both with alloy frames and the PO1 would be very close in comparison to the Shadow Line Compact. PO1: S2 Compact: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Yeah, mine is way worse than that. I guess I'll have to send it to Cajun or CZ Custom. I just don't know what they'd do that I haven't done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywizzle Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 11 hours ago, Curt_Hays said: It has a steel guide rod. Please help me understand how a lighter spring would reduce muzzle flip. My brain was thinking more muzzle dip. Grip it harder then? Captains of crush grip trainers helped me some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superfan Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Maybe mount a light on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 Neither grip, nor added weight is going to offset this muzzle flip. Besides that, additional grip will only make it harder to hit the long shots. It sounds like there is no option other than springs. Maybe one of the heavier flat wire springs will be worth a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 Actually, I'd forgotten that emailed CGW a couple years back, hahaha. David told me that the only solution he could offer would be a ported or compensated barrel. I'm not sure that I'm willing to use either of those, but if that's what he offers, then it is settled. I simply can't understand how one pistol can be so much different from the normal CZ75 Compact series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesedTech Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) On 2/11/2024 at 11:11 PM, Curt_Hays said: Please help me understand how a lighter spring would reduce muzzle flip. On 2/14/2024 at 8:42 AM, Curt_Hays said: Neither grip, nor added weight is going to offset this muzzle flip. Besides that, additional grip will only make it harder to hit the long shots. A lighter recoil spring does not rise as high as a heavier spring. People have actually done tests and posted the results on YouTube. But, the tradeoff is a sharper feeling hit at full open slide when it hits the stop. Put a buffer in to reduce this. If your additional "grip" is causing accuracy issues with long shots, then you are gripping the gun wrong and possibly anticipating compensating/pushing instead of actually gripping harder with your support hand. Lighter guns of the same design rotate more because of less mass. Guns with a higher center of the barrel bore rotate more because of the leverage... My lightweight 380 recoils/flips/rotates at least double of my competition guns (Shadow 2s). I've shot the Shadow 2 Compact and frankly it just recoils more. The only solution, besides tuning recoil and hammer spring is adding weight and to me that kind of negates the carry advantages of a lighter gun. I'm betting someone will come up with a tungsten guide rod. Everything is a compromise. Edited February 15 by HesedTech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 @HesedTech Really appreciate your comments and the time you took. "There are no solutions. There are only tradeoffs." - Thomas Sowell I have some Shadow 2 buffers and the factory 14lb spring or whatever the orange one is that it came with, so those will be the next thing I try. Thank you! My favorite pistol is the Laugo Alien: Massive recoil, minimal muzzle flip. The way it presses into your palm helps you correct your hand placement similar to a natural point of aim correction. I will accept that tradeoff if it is an option! As a reminder, the basis for my complaint is that the P-07 and the CZ75 Compact are nowhere near the flip of this pistol. The weight difference vs a P-07 is minimal. I have never shot a P-01 or an S2C, but the videos all make them look far tamer than my SLC. I'm not looking for a solution to better control the pistol with my hands; I'm looking for a way to tame the pistol itself. The techniques for doing so work just fine when moving and shooting or shooting a 45 Auto with a suppressor, and those techniques are not be necessary with any other CZ I have shot, not even a CZ97. With regard to my technique or my ability, I will not be increasing my firing hand grip pressure in order to group with a pistol. Grip pressure with the firing hand causes accuracy problems because of sympathetic muscle tension in the non-trigger fingers. In my experience as an instructor, sympathetic muscle tension is the primary reason that folks miss their targets. Adding grip with the support hand can increase accuracy, but its benefits have a low ceiling compared to the benefits of mastering the ability to pull the trigger without moving the sights. That being said, support hand grip pressure absolutely can decrease the amount of time it takes for the sights to return to the target. All of this is observable when grouping slow enough to watch your sights (yet another advantage of using red dots). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywizzle Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 11 hours ago, HesedTech said: A lighter recoil spring does not rise as high as a heavier spring. People have actually done tests and posted the results on YouTube. But, the tradeoff is a sharper feeling hit at full open slide when it hits the stop. Put a buffer in to reduce this. If your additional "grip" is causing accuracy issues with long shots, then you are gripping the gun wrong and possibly anticipating compensating/pushing instead of actually gripping harder with your support hand. Lighter guns of the same design rotate more because of less mass. Guns with a higher center of the barrel bore rotate more because of the leverage... My lightweight 380 recoils/flips/rotates at least double of my competition guns (Shadow 2s). I've shot the Shadow 2 Compact and frankly it just recoils more. The only solution, besides tuning recoil and hammer spring is adding weight and to me that kind of negates the carry advantages of a lighter gun. I'm betting someone will come up with a tungsten guide rod. Everything is a compromise. Thanks for the explanation and the cool video! Personally, I've been trying different grip techniques this winter and actually putting in some effort with consistent dry fire after rereading Brian's book. I've always been one to just shoot a lot of matches for fun. I struggle with accuracy at speed because of over gripping issues. Brian's explanation of just letting the gun recoil and focus on the gun returning to that position seems to be working more in my favor then my overdripping. He mentions holding it like a hammer. Among other things I've been trying to relax, release tension in the upper back and shoulders, and bring the gun up to my eye line rather than turtle shell, i.e. round the shoulders. I just shot a few matches on vacation and had some of the best steel challenge runs I've ever shot. The USPSA match was only a few stages but my Alphas were way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/10/2024 at 7:15 PM, Curt_Hays said: Any ideas why my pistol has such excessive muzzle flip? What ammo and recoil spring are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 On 2/15/2024 at 9:58 PM, Haywizzle said: Among other things I've been trying to relax, release tension in the upper back and shoulders, and bring the gun up to my eye line rather than turtle shell, i.e. round the shoulders. This is a good description of how I train folks. Maybe I'll have to read his book too. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 On 2/18/2024 at 5:17 PM, ES13Raven said: What ammo and recoil spring are you using? Generally using handloads that are abiut a 125 PF (blue bullets and Sport Pistol powder) or Blazer Brass 115gr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt_Hays Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 I tried using a lighter recoil spring, and I do think it's the most tolerable one. It's the one the gun came with, probably 14lb. The video linked above was interesting, but I can't use buffers on my pistol because of the guide rod no giving clearance in the right place. It is possible that an S2C guide rod might solve that problem for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywizzle Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 21 hours ago, Curt_Hays said: This is a good description of how I train folks. Maybe I'll have to read his book too. Thanks! I definitely recommend it. He even states there's no perfect technique, you just have to try things and see what works for you. In the introduction he states there are only three things you need to shoot: see the target, put the sights on the target, and pull the trigger without moving the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 On 2/12/2024 at 2:10 AM, Curt_Hays said: LOK Bogeys, and I have tried every recoil spring I can find. Main spring is 13lb blue one from Cajun. Not sure how heavy spring would contribute to more flip. Please help me understand that part. When the slide begins to move backwards, it also cocks the hammer - the heavier the mainspring, the more Force is required to overcome spring tension, and it is applied to the hammer pin, i.e. above your hands. I'd expect the difference between various springs to be minimal though. If the front and back of the grip are smooth (they were on my Shadowline), adding grip tape helps a lot. Kiddo's Shadow 1 has some checkering, but she still prefers having some grip tape. Factory checkering on Shadow 2 is good as is. Also: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Ask an experienced shooter to give a try. Then You know if the gun is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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