How to size PCC for use in competition?

[PaleoMan]

Hi,

 

I currently have a M&P 15-22 w/green dot that I use in Steel Challenge and I'm hoping to get a PCC later this year (researching).  One thing that I was wondering about was how to best adjust/setup for competition with respect to length of pull (LoP) and comb height (and any other things that I should consider).

 

I'm looking for pointers on how to figure out the right LoP and comb height and what products would be helpful to consider for the M&P 15-22 (I know it is really limited out of the box). That way, I can play with things on that platform, and consider doing similar things, when I get a PCC.

 

With my elbow at 90 degrees, I think the distance to my trigger finger joint is about 13.75" - 14". I think the M&P fully extended gives LoP 13.5".

Should I consider adding to the butt of the stock, or will that difference be negligible?

Are there products to do that?

Or should I just try some hack to temporarily add to the length?

 

I have no clue on how to figure out the comb height. any suggestions?

 

I'm concerned that I may not be always placing the stock on my chest, at the same height each time, and may be moving my head to compensate (I try to sight on the first plate I want to shoot, and then lower the rifle to the start stick, still looking at the plate - just not sure if I'm moving my head, when I raise the muzzle).

 

Pointers much appreciated here!

 

And anything I should think about, when I'm looking at PCCs w.r.t. getting a good fitment.

 

[k2pichu]

If you got $$$, you can get a PRS style stock with adjustable comb height, length of pull, and cant like the magpul PRS Gen3 (https://magpul.com/prs-gen3-precision-adjustable-stock.html). Otherwise you can get any standard Magpul adjustable stock which should have LoP adjustment and buy one of their cheek risers (https://magpul.com/ctr-moe0-50cheekriser.htm) which comes in a few heights. 

 

I set my LoP such that my firing hand wrist angle is at a comfortable/natural angle. I run my dot at 1.93" without any cheek risers or comb mods since that's what's comfortable for me. Since you said it yourself, you should probably work on getting a consistent mount position before you start tinkering with your setup. No setup can commensate for a variable stock placement.  As long as it's comfortable and consistent for you, that's all that really matters. 

 

 

[PaleoMan]

Would a cheek riser help me mount consistently? If so, how does one figure out the right height of the riser?

 

Right now, my cheek isn't touching at all, unless I bring my head down, or place the butt higher up than I think I should.

 

[Matt1911]

Stand in the ready position as you would with PCC. Buttstock touching belt. Then move to firing position as if the beep went off and make notes about where you are positioned naturally and how much you have to move your head, gun, arms etc. and where you moved to in order to get a solid firing position. Do this several times to get a good reference. Then try with your eyes closed to see if the reference points are the same. 

That should give you a good starting point on where you may need lop and/or cheek riser, or moving dot to different position on top rail and so on. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Matt1911

[k2pichu]

2 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Would a cheek riser help me mount consistently? If so, how does one figure out the right height of the riser?

 

Right now, my cheek isn't touching at all, unless I bring my head down, or place the butt higher up than I think I should.

 

 

If you like to tinker, you can try adding some layers of tape/foam to your stock to see if that makes it more comfortable for you. It's cheap and temporary. In the end, there's no way to get around this without doing thousands of reps. Cheek risers are more common in higher optic mounts (1.93/2.26). It might be more helpful to see a picture of what your mount looks like. 

 

[ParrytheWind]

Proper rifle mounting involves your shoulder, cheek weld and foregrip. Your dot should be in the middle of its glass. If it is too high or low,.. you will need to make adjustments on one or the other.

[42ATK]

My counter argument to all this is get something simple that allows you to shoot from any awkward position rather than get something that sets up perfect from home. Typically I’ve found that means not having millimeter specific cheek welds etc. but rather something you can hold onto and establish good enough shooting positions 

Edited August 31, 2023 by 42ATK

[Boomstick303]

22 minutes ago, 42ATK said:

get something simple that allows you to shoot from any awkward position rather than get something that sets up perfect from home. Typically I’ve found that means not having millimeter specific cheek welds etc. but rather something you can hold onto and establish good enough shooting positions 

 

That is not really a counter argument it is what shooting PCC or any Dynamic AR platform (2 Gun/3 Gun) is all about.  Shooting PCC is not shooting PRS or Steel challenge.  Completely different sport.  While there is a very good reason to have the check weld vs sight height all dialed in in Steel challenge and PRS and yes to long distances in 2 Gun and 3 Gun to an extent, you will not have the luxury of being on the clock and obtaining that perfect position.  If you are you will  NOT be competitive shooting PCC.  

 

When shooting at speed in a USPSA type of stage your reticle will rarely be in the be in the center of the glass.  It is important to identify an optic that has little to zero parallax.  

 

For the OP I would not try to overthink this.  Identify which PCC you want, put the optic you want to use on it and figure it out from there.  2-3 years ago there were people buying buttstocks that extended down to create more surface area on the shoulder for a given optic height, but I have not seen those used in the last couple of year nor do I think you need them.  Most of the successful PCC shooters in USPSA are not using buttstocks with any sorts of adjustability or risers.  The only adjustability is LOP.

 

To be successful in PCC/AR type rifles shooting USPSA type stages it takes a lot of practice on how to get the rifle in an acceptable position to score as many points as possible as quickly as possible.  If you are fretting over check weld you will not be competitive.   

 

 

[PaleoMan]

Currently, I shooting Steel Challenge with the M&P 15-22 (obviously as is a .22) and that's my main focus right now. Once I get a PCC, I'll likely try IDPA and USPSA some as well, but I really do love Steel Challenge and will be targeting that as much as I can.

 

So, I'm wondering if there are things I can do to help ensure I get a good and quick mount for shooting Steel Challenge. I do see some folks with risers on PCCs and .22s, and am wondering if that would help.  I'm also wondering about the LoP setup, and if there were some general guidelines on what length would be good to consider (and how to determine).

 

I did change the grip to a 17 degree grip, which I feel is more comfortable than the original.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

If you intend to use your PCC for steel challenge I could see a situation where you could have two buttstocks.  One with a riser for steel challenge and one with a riser for USPSA/IDPA.  

 

As far as LOP goes there is a ton on YouTube already.  It is up to you to try them and see what works for you.   Everyone's bodies are different.

 

[PaleoMan]

I'll take a look on YouTube for LoP to see what is there. At this point I'm mostly trying to learn about about ways to fit, and planning on practicing with the M&P 15-22 that I have to see how things work out.

 

I did git to briefly play with a friends PCC, and tried some double taps. I had some dot movement towards one o'clock and my friend to position the butt of the stock closer to center, and that cleared up the movement. Seems like I really will need to make sure I place the butt properly and consistently...

 

[theautobahn]

As far as comb height, like has been said, you need to bring the gun to your eye, not your eye to the gun. The optic should line up when you mount the gun. Try doing it eyes closed several times. When you open your eye, the dot should be centered, more or less. You can adjust optic riser height or cheek risers accordingly.

 

As far as LOP, find what's comfortable for you. If shooting fairly static, I usually go one click in from full extension as that gives me the most stability. But if I know I'm going to be doing a lot of positional shooting / contorting, I'll run two or three clicks in. I don't feel it messes with my cheek weld / sight alignment too much and gives me more maneuverability.

[PaleoMan]

On 9/7/2023 at 6:17 PM, theautobahn said:

As far as comb height, like has been said, you need to bring the gun to your eye, not your eye to the gun. The optic should line up when you mount the gun. Try doing it eyes closed several times. When you open your eye, the dot should be centered, more or less. You can adjust optic riser height or cheek risers accordingly.

 

As far as LOP, find what's comfortable for you. If shooting fairly static, I usually go one click in from full extension as that gives me the most stability. But if I know I'm going to be doing a lot of positional shooting / contorting, I'll run two or three clicks in. I don't feel it messes with my cheek weld / sight alignment too much and gives me more maneuverability.

Good idea. I'll play with mounting and seeing how things line up. No adjustment on this .22 that I have for optic height. I'll have to look to see if there is an cheek riser that I could add. I may try adding some temp padding for a cheek riser to see about fitment.

 

 

[drdre352]

LOP:  grip the grip and extend the buttstock to the inside bend of arm.