CZ with hammer back

[9x45]

Not my deal, but one of guys on the squad holstered his Carry Optics CZ with the hammer back after the Make Ready command. Some said DQ, some said to correct the start position, some said procedural. The rules that seem to apply are not so clear.

[ChuckS]

Hi Gordo,

 

The rules are pretty clear on this. You did not mention the division so I will assume CO. If they holstered the gun with the hammer back and the safety applied, it is the improper firearm ready condition and the shooter should not be started until it is corrected. If they holstered the handgun with the hammer back and the safety off, it is a DQ for unsafe gun handling.

 

Later,

Chuck

 

 

[9x45]

Thanks Chuck. I did not see if the safety was on or not. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

DQ 

holstering a unsafe gun 

[JodiH]

Yeah, like Chuck said it depends on if the safety was on or not.  If no safety, it's a DQ.  And assuming Production or Carry Optics, it also depends if he had the hammer back, safety on, at the start signal.  It would not be something the RO should correct nor an incorrect start position.  If the shooter corrected himself before the start signal and lowered the hammer and was compliant at the start signal, no problem.  If the shooter started hammer back, safety on then he has violated the special conditions of Prod/CO and would be bumped to Open per 6.2.5.1.

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, JodiH said:

Yeah, like Chuck said it depends on if the safety was on or not.  If no safety, it's a DQ.  And assuming Production or Carry Optics, it also depends if he had the hammer back, safety on, at the start signal.  It would not be something the RO should correct nor an incorrect start position.  If the shooter corrected himself before the start signal and lowered the hammer and was compliant at the start signal, no problem.  If the shooter started hammer back, safety on then he has violated the special conditions of Prod/CO and would be bumped to Open per 6.2.5.1.

Not quite.

 

8.1.2.2“Double action”–chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked

 

8.2

Competitor Ready Condition

This designates when, under the direct command of a Range Officer:

8.2.1 The firearm is prepared as specified in the Written Stage Briefing and is in compliance with the requirements of the relevant Division.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the Written Stage Briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire.

 

If they started or shot the COF with the hammer cocked, safety on, and the requirements of the relevant division was for a hammer down start, then they had an incorrect start position, and must reshoot the COF. It is NOT a move to Open, merely a reshoot, using the CORRECT start position.

[JodiH]

Yes, 8.2 describes the Competitor Ready Position, and you have listed the 2 subrules, but notice that 8.2.1 talks about firearm preparation and 8.2.2 talks about start position and that reshoots are only for an incorrect start position.  Not a firearm condition.

 

This situation was a question of the month on the NROI blog and here is the post that explains it and how it is taught by NROI:  https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/hammer-time/

[GrumpyOne]

13 minutes ago, JodiH said:

Yes, 8.2 describes the Competitor Ready Position, and you have listed the 2 subrules, but notice that 8.2.1 talks about firearm preparation and 8.2.2 talks about start position and that reshoots are only for an incorrect start position.  Not a firearm condition.

 

This situation was a question of the month on the NROI blog and here is the post that explains it and how it is taught by NROI:  https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/hammer-time/

I stand corrected.

[9x45]

Yup, that's what one of our guys said also

 

"Nope. RO shouldn't say anything and then it's a bump to open once he shoots the stage that way...start position and start condition are different. Nothing in the rules stating the RO should correct the start condition of someone's gun. Kinda mean though but that's the rules. At a level 1 match you can coach though..."

[ChuckS]

20 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

--- snip ---. At a level 1 match you can coach though..."

If coaching is requested  

[9x45]

Yes, but you know what our squad is like......

[ChuckS]

10 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

Yes, but you know what our squad is like......

Coaching implies something helpful. That is not the case on that squad