Ginex primers in 9mm give small crater, Murom primers using same load don't

[Marcusz]

Hi,

So when I develop my load and use Ginex primers small pistol for my 9mm rounds, I have a small crater in my primer. I assume this indicates a little overpressure. However, when I make exactly the same load, but use Murom small pistol primers, the hole in the primer looks perfect, no crater, deeper perfect round hole.

 

Any idea what is happening here ?

 

Thanks in advance,

Marco

Edited March 10, 2023 by Marcusz

[GrumpyOne]

Ginex may be made from a harder material.

[Marcusz]

7 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Ginex may be made from a harder material.

Yes they are much harder indeed. How would this cause the crater ?

Thanks

[GrumpyOne]

3 minutes ago, Marcusz said:

Yes they are much harder indeed. How would this cause the crater ?

Thanks

Pictures would help.

[Marcusz]

This is a fired Ginex primer

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

Pictures would help.

And chrono data...

[Marcusz]

another one

3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

And chrono data...

PF 130

Ares 125gr bullet

[ChuckS]

To help sort this out, you may want to use the same headstamp brass for both samples. It should rule out any primer pocket effects. And as for that "crater", do you mean the thing that is circled in red?

[Marcusz]

For crater I mean the small circle area around the hole the expanded, or came “up”.

Not the area you drawed

[Dicktater_Pete]

1 hour ago, Marcusz said:

This is a fired Ginex primer

 

Send this man some moisturizer!

[Marcusz]

2 minutes ago, Dicktater_Pete said:

 

Send this man some moisturizer!

yes this picture shows some freaky details of my cold dry hand that night on the range indeed

[Dicktater_Pete]

4 minutes ago, Marcusz said:

yes this picture shows some freaky details of my cold dry hand that night on the range indeed

First step is always admitting you have a problem.  We're here for you.  

[Marcusz]

11 minutes ago, Dicktater_Pete said:

First step is always admitting you have a problem.  We're here for you.  

[GrumpyOne]

That is not over pressure. The edges of the primer would be flat.

[GrumpyOne]

16 minutes ago, Dicktater_Pete said:

First step is always admitting you have a problem.  We're here for you.  

I'm sure there is a comedy forum somewhere that is missing your input. 

[HesedTech]

8 hours ago, Marcusz said:

Any idea what is happening here ?

Yes.

 

I have used thousands of both brands and my experience is  Ginex is softer metal than Murom. At 130 PF in 9mm, unless you overcharged a few rounds of Ginex, over pressure should never be an issue. I guarantee that if you had used Federal primers you would see even more flattening/"cratering" because of how soft they are. 

 

Truthfully unless you make an error in powder or have a bullet set back you won't have any over pressure issues until you start to get near major power factor in 9mm. But it all depends on powder and bullet combos.

 

So what is the "crater?" Did you check the breach face and see how large a diameter the firing pin hole is? 

Is this a PCC, 1911, or what? The "crater" is the result of the pressure of the case and primer pushing against the face as the cartridge fires and the bolt or slide moves backwards leaving a mark from the pin hole.

 

What you are showing really isn't a big deal.

[Marcusz]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:48 PM, HesedTech said:

Yes.

 

I have used thousands of both brands and my experience is  Ginex is softer metal than Murom. At 130 PF in 9mm, unless you overcharged a few rounds of Ginex, over pressure should never be an issue. I guarantee that if you had used Federal primers you would see even more flattening/"cratering" because of how soft they are. 

 

Truthfully unless you make an error in powder or have a bullet set back you won't have any over pressure issues until you start to get near major power factor in 9mm. But it all depends on powder and bullet combos.

 

So what is the "crater?" Did you check the breach face and see how large a diameter the firing pin hole is? 

Is this a PCC, 1911, or what? The "crater" is the result of the pressure of the case and primer pushing against the face as the cartridge fires and the bolt or slide moves backwards leaving a mark from the pin hole.

 

What you are showing really isn't a big deal.

Hi, 

Thanks for your detailed reply.

In my opinion the Ginex is much harder than the Murom primers. The Ginex are difficult to set at the right depth, because they are much harder, and if not set deep enough, they will cause a light strike.

Murom is much softer for me. As I mentioned in the initial post, the rounds with the same load and same specs, fired with Murom, in the same gun are not showing this ' crater ' or ' round area ' surrounding the firing pin hole.

 

The gun is a 9mm 2011.

 

If its no over pressure, I am happy. Still it is surprising me the Murom loaded rounds show a normal deep hole, and the Ginex show the primers I showed on the pictures in this thread

[shred]

Springfield Prodigy?  Mine makes marks like that in some primers.

 

[HesedTech]

14 hours ago, Marcusz said:

The Ginex are difficult to set at the right depth, because they are much harder, and if not set deep enough, they will cause a light strike.

The issue for depth seating isn't hardness but inconsistency in diameter.

 

I've loaded and shot tens of thousand of Ginex primers, both the brass and plated ones. I also have loaded and shot over thousands of Murom and without a doubt in my experience the Muroms are both harder and more likely to light strike (Shadow 2, Tanfoglio and Glock pistols) if not seated really deep and flattened a little. 

 

The Ginex and Murom primers are also a few mm shorter than CCI or Federal Primers. If you don't have an adjustable seating depth this will also cause light strike issues because they didn't get seated against the back of the primer pocket.

 

After looking at your pics of the primers I checked in my spent bucket and saw the exact same dents/impressions from range brass which came from multiple brands of ammo and guns. 

 

Also don't forget the tension of the pocket holding the primer can vary depending on the diameter of the primer and the pocket. The primers can and will move backwards as the ammo fires. I haven't checked the diameter difference but I would wager the Muroms are slightly larger in diameter. 

 

In spite of all this little details the goal is a consistent bang when the trigger is pulled. 

[Marcusz]

20 hours ago, shred said:

Springfield Prodigy?  Mine makes marks like that in some primers.

 

Bul SAS2 2011

[Marcusz]

6 hours ago, HesedTech said:

The issue for depth seating isn't hardness but inconsistency in diameter.

 

I've loaded and shot tens of thousand of Ginex primers, both the brass and plated ones. I also have loaded and shot over thousands of Murom and without a doubt in my experience the Muroms are both harder and more likely to light strike (Shadow 2, Tanfoglio and Glock pistols) if not seated really deep and flattened a little. 

 

The Ginex and Murom primers are also a few mm shorter than CCI or Federal Primers. If you don't have an adjustable seating depth this will also cause light strike issues because they didn't get seated against the back of the primer pocket.

 

After looking at your pics of the primers I checked in my spent bucket and saw the exact same dents/impressions from range brass which came from multiple brands of ammo and guns. 

 

Also don't forget the tension of the pocket holding the primer can vary depending on the diameter of the primer and the pocket. The primers can and will move backwards as the ammo fires. I haven't checked the diameter difference but I would wager the Muroms are slightly larger in diameter. 

 

In spite of all this little details the goal is a consistent bang when the trigger is pulled. 

Thanks for the great info and reply. I am gonna shoot and collect some fired brass from my Bul SAS2 and Tanfoglio Limited Custom, and then both with Ginex and Murom, same load and bullet, only different primer. Will post some more pics. I am learning here. Appreciated.

[Farmer]

I have a couple of guns that do that too. Looks horrible but the edges are still nice and rounded. 

[Marcusz]

Okay, so 2 pictures. One is load with Ginex primers fired with Tanfoglio, other is exactly same load with also Ginex primers fired with Bul 2011. Load PF 130

[Twilk73]

My archon type b does this with primers. Didn’t think this was a problem. Noticed it on blaze brass and federal so far. 

[delta6]

On 3/17/2023 at 3:38 AM, Marcusz said:

Okay, so 2 pictures. One is load with Ginex primers fired with Tanfoglio, other is exactly same load with also Ginex primers fired with Bul 2011. Load PF 130