On The Nature Of Competition

[Chriss Grube]

Graywolf,

I'm all for more people shooting but if you are shooting in a division of one or two people then what is the point of going to the match, might as well just go to the range and practice. The matches are for competiton. The 3 division rule makes sense( which is why we will never see it) the class problem should be settled easy. An A is an A. You are classed at whatever your highest class is, no more of the one lower BS. This will stop the sandbagging of some and make HQ life easier. To turn around the point on the many who want all these new divisions, Why don't you show up with your single stack and shoot in Limited and have fun and shoot for the top prize? See it solves the problem of new divisions, Settles the arguement and we can all get back to shooting.

[Alan Meek]

Chris if I asked for advice on what I should shoot in limited or limited-10 what advice would you give me?

Alan

Edited December 18, 2005 by 9Major-Caspian

[Nik Habicht]

if you are shooting in a division of one or two people then what is the point of going to the match?

The point is to have fun --- and to test my skills against the challenges of the stages and the other competitors in my division, and all the other competitors in the match. The first thing I look at in results is the Production totals --- to see where I finished, who I beat, and how close I'm getting to catching whoever's on top. (Marques, closer --- Sevigny, still can't see him --- he's over the freakin' horizon, Norman, I gotta look in the rearview mirror once in a while.) Then I look at the stage results to see where I was good and where I need work. Finally I look at the overall results --- to see what it would look like if we had no divisions....

Now let me turn this around for ya: What's the issue with people deciding to shoot in the less popular divisions? Do you need more competition? Do you need to know that you beat more people? What's the problem here?

[Chuck D]

I started shooting combat matches in 1981. Joined USPSA in 1987 when local clubs required USPSA membership. Back when I got started Front Sight didn't exist. Instead we read the "Combat Shooter's Report" and Lewis Class was the order of the day. We used stop watches to keep time and on indoor ranges we used balloons as stop plates.

The point of the above statement is that we as a sport have come a long way in a short period of time. Who gives a damn if there is only 5 shooters in a Division at a match? No one EVER said we needed to provide a Division with inadequate participation numbers any special compensation. Wer're developing (growing older and hopefully wiser) and with that development...changes will need be made. Why would anyone want to return to a "run what you brung" atmosphere similar to the one we HAD in the 1970's?

We have 5 (soon to be 6) Divisions. It's up to USPSA to determine whether that's enough, too many, or additional Divisions need to be added. Once they do that (hopefully based upon the membership's input) then the membership can decide whether they wish to participate or not. For those that have not noticed...this process has been ongoing since USPSA's inception.

[chp5]

I have an observation about new divisions.

Production division is a relatively new division enacted to attract new shooters and cross-overs from IDPA, etc. IMO – it worked! Good call!

In the beginning, competition in Production was largely limited to newer and cross-over shooters. However, thanks in large part to Dave Sevigney, Production is now attracting veteran shooters and becoming a large and competitive division.

Single stack has the potential to do the same thing, so why not give it a try . . .

[Chriss Grube]

Alan,

We'll let's see Para, SV or STI or you can get exotic if you really want, you might even win with something else if your real good. If you mean which divison Limited. If you're in a state or country that only allows X rounds then shoot Limited. Since nobody here would ever break the well thought out laws of the state and build illegal mags or shoot a match while possessing such illegal items. Then everybody can load X rounds, shoot limited and all be on equal footing just like the open guys, since nobody has cried enough to get a Open 10 round only provisional division ...YET. Unless you shoot a postal match. Good luck and enjoy being a good law abiding citizen.

[MBaneACP]

Yo Brother Sweeney...I agree...although I was a latecomer to the sport of "combat shooting," getting cranked up around 1979.

More shooters is good, always. What I wish is that there was some "overriding authority" that helped out handgun competition...rather than having a lot of divisions in USPSA — although there's nothing wrong with that — have an umbrella sanctioning/clearinghouse body for a number of smaller sports. There might be USPSA, Defensive Pistol, Steel Challenge, ICORE, a .22 Organization, etc. Matches would be coordinated through the umbrella organization so they all wouldn't be on the SAME WEEKEND IN JUNE; members of one organization could shoot, say, 3 matches in any other organization and not have to be a member. Recruitment and retention issues could be dealt with at a higher level, etc. An umbrella organization representing 50-75,000 members would have mroe juice with the gun media (including me) and even the mainstream media.

As to why one might choose to shoot in "lesser" divisions or add bywaters of the sport, can you spell BOREDOM? It's hard to stay up all the time, even if you are (as am I) a chronic competitor. It's fun to shuffle stuff around now and then.

Michael B

[Alan Meek]

Chris,

Now you said exactly what I figured you would. Sorry but in your first post you advocated somebody who has a 1911 to shoot in limited and forget the the Provisional Division, yet when I asked for your suggestion you recommend a Hi-cap pistol to shoot in the same division.

I apologize for the bait and switch, I just wanted to show how established competitors recommend to anyone what is needed to compete in this sport. And Chris this is not an attack on you.

By virtue of the recommendation that so many people make this recommendation will alienate potential competitors and future members.

I will be supporting the Provisional division in 2006 and I encourage all members to be supportive of the individuals who decide to participate in the provisional division as well as the people that will shoot in the other divisions.

Alan

[Chriss Grube]

Alan,

I gave you advice on what will most likely win. Yes you will have new shooters show up with a SS but if they are serious about competeing they will upgrade their gear like all of us have. I'm sorry this debate has gone on so long. I'm just really stressed out from fighting my way through the registration lines at matches since we have opened up all these new divisions. My god there has to be millions of new members since this all happened. Hell the parking lot looks like an FOP convention full of marked units now with all the LE shooters coming into the sport since we made division that fit the issued gear and made a special category jsut for LE. No seriously I haven't seen a big change... same faces sometimes shooting a different division. It isn't the guns and gear keeping people away. Hell every cop I knew gets issued a gun that fits Production but They don't come out to shoot. Same for the general public. Ours is a limited market and I don't care what you do or create Human nature is only a few will step up to compete and the rest will make excuses not too.

[shred]

It is the nature of competition for the newcomer to need to see the rungs on the ladder to success. Few people are attracted to a sport where the learning curve resembles a greased pole. People want to be competitive on some level, no matter what that level is.

How we get there is where we debate, but I'm thinking no-classes-no-divisions-heads-up isn't going to cut it long term.

[Alan Meek]

Chris,

But that is where the issue lies. You tell people that they should shoot limited with a single stack but you also tell them they can't be competitve with that gun. USPSA in the past has tried to implement divisons to get new shooters to the local matches. Limited was supposed to bring in new shooters without them having to spend $3000.00 on a gun to be competitive. Well the previous BODs allowed more and more latitude and Limited became an arms race. Limited-10 was created in response to the AWB and everybody preaches if you want to be competitive in Lim-10 you need to shoot a wide body and download it. Production was and is a good idea. Most commonly sold firearms that do not have to compete against 3000 race guns. I feel SSD is also a good idea. Any gun shop that I have walked into rarely has an S_I or a race ready para on the shelf. THey usually have bunch of DA Semi-autos and 1911 pattern guns. These are what people are buying. So if you want to get increased participation you need to set the divisions accordingly. Me personally I would like to see how you can combine the 1911's with production. Limit the mag to oem flush with the frame, set a price limit on how much the gun can cost, even list the specific guns that are allowed. I know this is a little far out.

As far as law enforcement participating the ones that do will but the majority of law enforcement will not. Just the way it is. Years ago I put on a LE IPSC match only for a local Law Enforcement week and we would have 60 officers show up for the match. Never saw a one of them at any regular matches.

Also in the last couple of years I have noticed an increase in match attendance from the local matches all the way up.

Alan

[Chriss Grube]

I like the idea of Open, Limited and Production. Throw SS and revolver into Production as a catergory. Allow SS and Revolver to make major. Double stacks are still minor all mag length rules and gear position stays the same as production now. L-10 disappears.

[tightloop]

The different divisions are the same as all the types and makes of cars...if you don't want a Chevy get a Ford...if you don't like Open shoot Limited...

I personally, would like to return to the thrilling days of yesteryear...run what you brung...and every one shoot heads up...that way you know the best man won..it is contingent on you to stay up with the arms race...that was part of the fun in the 1970's and early '80's....can't tell you how many times we pondered hollow basing 200 LSWC bullets to have a flat shooting low recoiling gun that noone could identify as "not legit"...the tungsten guide rods, grip weights, new and different powders, pin guns, comps, then it took a quantum leap into hi caps and optics and red dots and pistols that held LOTS of bullets...

It is all good..just be aware that it is the indian and not the arrow..

[iweiny]

It is the nature of competition for the newcomer to need to see the rungs on the ladder to success. Few people are attracted to a sport where the learning curve resembles a greased pole. People want to be competitive on some level, no matter what that level is.

I was not going to post but LMFAO!!! "Greased pole" indeed!!!

Ira

[Patrick Sweeney]

Time to throw cold water on cherished notions. In no particular order:

We did not institute Limited back in the old days to "Let new shooters get into the sport without spending $3000 on an Open gun." Back then, anyone who spent three grand on a gun was a lunatic. We split into Open and Limited for a simple reason: you couldn't shoot an iron-sight gun and beat an Open gun. Rather than see the whole sport go to nothing but Open (and shooters leaving in droves) we split into two classes. Later called Divisions. And the reason Limijted guns kept evolving? Because back then evolution was felt to be a good thing.

The big dogs don't shoot widebodies in L-10 because the guns are so much more competitive. You know the main reason? They already have them. Having invested the time and effort (not to mention money) in getting a widebody .40 reliable, accurate, soft-shooting and the loading press set up perfectly, why do it all over again for a single stack? Especially if they'll be shooting an Open sometimes, too? Sputter all you want about how a widebody mag reloads faster because of the tube taper. You can have a huge funnel to get that single stack loaded quickly too. Practice matters more than tube size.

Paring back the number of Divisions, and then "allowing" other guns to shoot as a category doesn't change a thing. The stats people will have to do as much work. The shooters you feel are "hiding" will still hide. We'll still have as many trophies, plaques, certificates, etc. What it will do is make explaining things even more difficult to a new shooter. We already make their heads spin, explaining Comstock. Try telling them that they'll be shooting sub-category F of Limited, Senior class. "Huh? I just want to shoot. What class do I mark down?"

Too many Divisions dilutes the competition pool? And how many are you competing against? Your buddies, for sure. Are you seriously telling us that you're competing against Robbie/Dave/Todd/Jerry? Do they even know you're on the range that day? If it is possible to have "too many" Divisions, then Cowboy Action must really be hurting. You can shoot in one of a dozen (or more, I haven't checked for a week) categories. If you really want a "run what you brung" finals, get your hands on the match overall standings. If the USPSA or the club won't print/calculate them, then kick up a fuss there.

Will someone explain to me, in simple declarative sentences, just what problem we're solving, by eliminating/consolidating Divisions?