Need pointers on sight picture

[virtwo]

Hi,

 

First post, a newbie to shooting and here with a question. Have been following this sub-forum and trying to learn from others experience.

 

Background

 

Have been shooting on weekly basis from last few month months. Right now trying to improve marksmanship. Started with a rental Mark IV with red dot. At 5 yards most shot end in 2" group, and at 15 yards they end in 5-6" group. 

 

Last month purchased a Shadow 1. After few practice sessions started getting 2" group at 5 yards. At 15 yards it opened up to 12" and 7-8" at 10 yards. 

 

So far was using a 12" black splatter target with 1.5" red bulls eye. Last session switched to a 8" target with an 1" red bulls eye. This time I got 4-5" group at 5 yards. Tried multiple times but could not do better.

 

Tried thinking of the reasons and I think I have trouble with sight picture w.r.t to target size.

 

Question

 

I am using combat hold and I keep front sight in focus. With 1.5" bulls eye, I can keep sight picture centered in the bulls eye.

 

With 1" bulls eye or at larger distance, sight picture seems to cover the bulls eye and I have trouble aiming.

 

Any pointers on improving aim, when sight picture is bigger that target will be much appreciated. Will be heading to range on Saturday and will try out the advices.

 

If it helps I wear prescription glasses.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by virtwo

[lgh]

It's probably not your sight picture. The groups are way too big for that. Do more dry firing to see where the front sight is when the trigger breaks. i.e. learn to call your shots.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

18 hours ago, virtwo said:

Hi,

 

First post, a newbie to shooting and here with a question. Have been following this sub-forum and trying to learn from others experience.

 

Background

 

Have been shooting on weekly basis from last few month months. Right now trying to improve marksmanship. Started with a rental Mark IV with red dot. At 5 yards most shot end in 2" group, and at 15 yards they end in 5-6" group. 

 

Last month purchased a Shadow 1. After few practice sessions started getting 2" group at 5 yards. At 15 yards it opened up to 12" and 7-8" at 10 yards. 

 

So far was using a 12" black splatter target with 1.5" red bulls eye. Last session switched to a 8" target with an 1" red bulls eye. This time I got 4-5" group at 5 yards. Tried multiple times but could not do better.

 

Tried thinking of the reasons and I think I have trouble with sight picture w.r.t to target size.

 

Question

 

I am using combat hold and I keep front sight in focus. With 1.5" bulls eye, I can keep sight picture centered in the bulls eye.

 

With 1" bulls eye or at larger distance, sight picture seems to cover the bulls eye and I have trouble aiming.

 

Any pointers on improving aim, when sight picture is bigger that target will be much appreciated. Will be heading to range on Saturday and will try out the advices.

 

If it helps I wear prescription glasses.

 

 

Like another member said, your groups are way, waaaayyyy too big to be sight or vision issues.

 

I bet your both your grip and your trigger press technique leave a lot to be desired.  There is no other explanation for shooting 12" groups at 15 yards with a CZ Shadow.

 

A Shadow will easily print 2"-3" groups at 15 yards shooting freestyle at a leisurely pace.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[virtwo]

Thank you!

 

Will spend more time doing dry fire practice. Hopefully it will get better!

[Johnny_Chimpo]

23 minutes ago, virtwo said:

Thank you!

 

Will spend more time doing dry fire practice. Hopefully it will get better!

 

Do you have access to anyone who can help you see and feel what a correct grip and trigger press are like?

 

It's really tough to learn without a frame of reference.  Not impossible, but harder than it needs to be.

[virtwo]

So far had been trying to self learn. Mostly videos and books.

 

Next time at range, I will ask if they have classes I can attend. Or maybe one of the fellow shooters there will show me the ropes.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, virtwo said:

So far had been trying to self learn. Mostly videos and books

 

I hear you.  I'm much the same way.  But this is one area where a second set of eyes pays off big.

[lgh]

Johnny is right. I took quite a few classes on defensive shooting. Extremely useful and money well spent. Formal instruction will save you a lot of time and frustration. But eventually you will have to work some things out for your specific hand size, pistol, etc. Despite what you might hear or read on the internet, there are broad guidelines for effective shooting but there is no one-size-fits-all. Along those lines, a RDS is a great learning tool even if you prefer irons. Very good for getting grip, transitions, and trigger press worked out. And there is one thing that virtually everyone will agree on and that is the importance of dry fire and calling your shots.

[Mountain09]

You can find a good video on youtube .

[sfinney]

Solid firm grip. Most pressure in your off hand. Keep sight picture aligned  III  as trigger breaks. Keep your eyes open and don’t pre-anticipate recoil. Let the gun recoil.
 

it’s ok to have front sight focus but with iron sights your eyes should be going out to target and back to sights, repeat… harder to do with prescription lenses/older eyes.

 

Dry fire and practice on small targets and with your smooth pull trigger press keep the gun perfectly still. If it moves, you did it wrong.

[virtwo]

21 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I hear you.  I'm much the same way.  But this is one area where a second set of eyes pays off big.

 

13 hours ago, lgh said:

Johnny is right. I took quite a few classes on defensive shooting. Extremely useful and money well spent. Formal instruction will save you a lot of time and frustration. But eventually you will have to work some things out for your specific hand size, pistol, etc. Despite what you might hear or read on the internet, there are broad guidelines for effective shooting but there is no one-size-fits-all. Along those lines, a RDS is a great learning tool even if you prefer irons. Very good for getting grip, transitions, and trigger press worked out. And there is one thing that virtually everyone will agree on and that is the importance of dry fire and calling your shots.

 

9 hours ago, Mountain09 said:

You can find a good video on youtube .

 

1 hour ago, sfinney said:

Solid firm grip. Most pressure in your off hand. Keep sight picture aligned  III  as trigger breaks. Keep your eyes open and don’t pre-anticipate recoil. Let the gun recoil.

 

it’s ok to have front sight focus but with iron sights your eyes should be going out to target and back to sights, repeat… harder to do with prescription lenses/older eyes.

 

Dry fire and practice on small targets and with your smooth pull trigger press keep the gun perfectly still. If it moves, you did it wrong.

 

Thanks everyone for these pointers.

 

Have increased dryfire practice. And had been watching videos.

 

Found a handgun fundamental class at my range. Planning to take it. Most definitely my grip and other fundamentals need work.

 

Agree, don't have a reference. I have been reading online and trying at range but have no clues if I am doing it right. Classes will definitely help.

 

I liked red dot compared to iron sights. Was definitely easier and was shooting better. But for now I will stick with iron sights (no budget).

 

Will practice "your eyes should be going out to target and back to sights". Did not know this.

 

Hopefully this Saturday will be better.

 

Will you folks updated.

 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, virtwo said:

Will practice "your eyes should be going out to target and back to sights". Did not know this.

 

With some practice, you can shoot iron sights effectively (and quite a bit faster) with all of your focus on the target except for particularly far or tight targets.

 

This guy shoots irons with an almost exclusive target focus.  Those with tender ears might want to mute the audio......

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[RJH]

If you are not, double plug your ears. It will help take away the noise distraction that can be a big part of a flinch. Many times when you are getting a pattern instead of a group it's because of the anticipation of recoil, most the time though the anticipation is not of the recoil but of the noise of the shot. If you get the noise levels down it can help you focus on the other stuff. Good luck

[IHAVEGAS]

 

[virtwo]

7 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

With some practice, you can shoot iron sights effectively (and quite a bit faster) with all of your focus on the target except for particularly far or tight targets.

 

This guy shoots irons with an almost exclusive target focus.  Those with tender ears might want to mute the audio......

 

 

Thanks you. This was a good watch.

 

 

6 hours ago, RJH said:

If you are not, double plug your ears. It will help take away the noise distraction that can be a big part of a flinch. Many times when you are getting a pattern instead of a group it's because of the anticipation of recoil, most the time though the anticipation is not of the recoil but of the noise of the shot. If you get the noise levels down it can help you focus on the other stuff. Good luck

 

Thanks. Will try using ear plugs under muffs next time.

 

[Farmer]

Where your shots are going can also reveal what you need to work on. Low left, on center but low/high, low right ect. I learned a lot here from this forum and couldn’t believe how much grip affects where you hit. 

[virtwo]

16 minutes ago, Farmer said:

Where your shots are going can also reveal what you need to work on. Low left, on center but low/high, low right ect. I learned a lot here from this forum and couldn’t believe how much grip affects where you hit. 

 

Was too disappointed in last visit (when I switched to a target with 1" rings), and did not take any photos.

 

This is from 5/14, a visit before. This has all 2" rings. Shot 5y, then 10y, 15y, and 17y at end.

Looking at previous photos, it seems I tend to hit on left side.

 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, virtwo said:

 

Was too disappointed in last visit (when I switched to a target with 1" rings), and did not take any photos.

 

This is from 5/14, a visit before. This has all 2" rings. Shot 5y, then 10y, 15y, and 17y at end.

Looking at previous photos, it seems I tend to hit on left side.

 

 

 

 

 

How quickly were you shooting each of those targets?  That makes a difference.

 

As far as Ben Stoeger's video goes, pay close attention to three things

• The pistol never, ever moves around in his hands
• He never has to adjust his grip once the pistol is in his hands
• The muzzle rises very very little with every shot

Like @Farmer said, a correct grip is the key that unlocks high performance with a handgun.  Perfect trigger control with a poor grip means you will be accurate but painfully slow.  Adequate trigger control with a perfect grip is both very accurate and very fast.

 

Your groups tend to be very symmetrical vertically.  That doesn't tell me flinching.  It tells me your grip is weak and your wrists are loose.

 

The leftwards tendency indicates too strong a grip with the right hand and too weak with the left.  It should be the opposite.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Farmer]

Yes I do the same thing and then have to remind myself to tighten my off hand to help straighten things out. With so many years of target shooting off a bench with a slooowwww trigger squeeze I just have to remember that once my trigger finger starts to move to not stop and just keep on pulling through. On the striker fired guns that has been a big help and even the others too. Don’t quote me but I think it was Ben Stoeger that said if your grip is right you can smash the trigger and the sights shouldn’t move. Also where your finger is on the trigger can move things around with a weak or improper grip. 

[virtwo]

23 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

How quickly were you shooting each of those targets?  That makes a difference.

 

As far as Ben Stoeger's video goes, pay close attention to three things

• The pistol never, ever moves around in his hands
• He never has to adjust his grip once the pistol is in his hands
• The muzzle rises very very little with every shot

Like @Farmer said, a correct grip is the key that unlocks high performance with a handgun.  Perfect trigger control with a poor grip means you will be accurate but painfully slow.  Adequate trigger control with a perfect grip is both very accurate and very fast.

 

Your groups tend to be very symmetrical vertically.  That doesn't tell me flinching.  It tells me your grip is weak and your wrists are loose.

 

The leftwards tendency indicates too strong a grip with the right hand and too weak with the left.  It should be the opposite.

 

 

Wasn't shooting fast. Would say was taking my time.

Currently, once I have sights aligned, I end up taking decent time trying to keep it steady and find it difficult to make it wobble free.

In dryfire, I am trying to shoot when I breathe down and keep it steady at that moment, instead of spending seconds keeping it steady.

 

I will watch the video again in evening on larger screen (was seeing on phone).

One thing I learnt from video was that my left/off hand was not placed correctly. I was keeping it way forward.

 

You are right, I end up unintentionally gripping strongly with my right hand.

Other thing I noticed yesterday while dry firing. Instead of keeping weight on left foot, I somehow end up shifting weight on right foot and leaning back.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Farmer said:

Yes I do the same thing and then have to remind myself to tighten my off hand to help straighten things out. With so many years of target shooting off a bench with a slooowwww trigger squeeze I just have to remember that once my trigger finger starts to move to not stop and just keep on pulling through. On the striker fired guns that has been a big help and even the others too. Don’t quote me but I think it was Ben Stoeger that said if your grip is right you can smash the trigger and the sights shouldn’t move. Also where your finger is on the trigger can move things around with a weak or improper grip. 

 

His book does say that. If grip is good, it can hide problem with trigger pull.

[Farmer]

6 hours ago, virtwo said:

You are right, I end up unintentionally gripping strongly with my right hand.

Other thing I noticed yesterday while dry firing. Instead of keeping weight on left foot, I somehow end up shifting weight on right foot and leaning back.

One way I try to remember these things is to think your in an aggressive fight for your life. Your leaning forward and forging ahead and no one is going to stop you. 

[virtwo]

So went to range today. 

 

What did not go well

 

Tried only at 5y and 7y. In both cases group was around 4" with few (5-6 out of 100) at 6".

 

What I think went well

 

- Worked on how I stand. Paid attention that I don't lean back. Was able to do that.

 

- Worked on grip. Kind of completely different than how I was placing left hand previously. Definitely helped as this time gun didn't bounce as much.

 

- Tried gripping much harder, can definitely feel soreness in arms.

 

- Did not spend 7-8 seconds before making the shot. More like 2 seconds from aim to fire.

 

Moment of happiness: I tried shooting at four 1" targets at 5yard. Fired once at each and shots ended up on or touching the targets.

 

Have signed up for a fundamentals class. It's on June 30th.

 

Thanks everyone. Till next visit, I will keep doing dryfire practice.

 

[Farmer]

9 hours ago, virtwo said:

So went to range today. 

 

What did not go well

 

Tried only at 5y and 7y. In both cases group was around 4" with few (5-6 out of 100) at 6".

 

What I think went well

 

- Worked on how I stand. Paid attention that I don't lean back. Was able to do that.

 

- Worked on grip. Kind of completely different than how I was placing left hand previously. Definitely helped as this time gun didn't bounce as much.

 

- Tried gripping much harder, can definitely feel soreness in arms.

 

- Did not spend 7-8 seconds before making the shot. More like 2 seconds from aim to fire.

 

Moment of happiness: I tried shooting at four 1" targets at 5yard. Fired once at each and shots ended up on or touching the targets.

 

Have signed up for a fundamentals class. It's on June 30th.

 

Thanks everyone. Till next visit, I will keep doing dryfire practice.

 

For cheap, get some Thera-putty to strengthen your grip. 
I also picked up a Sidewinder Revolution from Sport Grips and that thing Really helps your forearms, elbows and even shoulders. The finger extender bands help to give reverse strength in your hands and elbows. Amazon has them all. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Farmer

[Farmer]

Here’s the finger bands or you can use a rubber band also. 

[virtwo]

Ordered those finger bands and squeezy. Did not know something of this sort existed.