Shooter's Mistake? Or Mine (the Stage Ro)?

[D_4_Ever]

I told this one to a few shooters @ my club who are active on here, so sorry if this repeats:

Was RO on a stage in a club match. It was a hot, muggy day and there wasn't much shade available. I call a shooter up to the line. Normal procedures. 1/2 way through the stage his gun jams w. that familiar 'squib' sound, and his 1911/Commander locks up somewhere between ejecting and battery.

The shooter starts to struggle w. the jam. Maybe 10 seconds have passed, but its a club match, so I let him continue. I thought it would be good practice for him... Didn't think much beyond that and watching his movements.

He finally clears the jam, magazine out, racks the slide, then he briskly swings the muzzle around about 270 deg. (sweeping my face in the process), pulls back on the slide to open breech and proceeds to look down the barrel from the muzzle end to be sure he didn't have a squib in there. Mind you this all happened pretty fast.

After I collected my thoughts, I calmly stopped the guy and told him he was done shooting for the day. What happened next was a surprise. The guy got really upset. Said he'd been shooting IPSC for 20+ years... blah blah blah, and had NEVER been DQ'ed. Told him 'Hey, nothing personal. Its hot out here...'

A couple of the people in my squad agreed, but most felt that since it was a club match, there was no need to 'embarass the guy' w. the DQ. Looking back, I think the proper thing to do would have been to stop him right away, let him show clear without the timer running and then give him a re-shoot. Hind sight is 20/20, but that experience will stay with me for a while, mostly due to the strange feeling which washed over me as that muzzle went by my face.

[Kingman]

DQ totally appropriate.

But yes if you thought you heard a squib you probably should have stopped him for safety. Think of how you might feel if he did get it racked and a bullet happened to be in the bbl still. Then he fired the next round.

[davidball]

When it comes to the rules, and especially safety rules, club matches are no different than nationals.

5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. During such corrective action, the competitor must keep the muzzle of the handgun point safely downrange at all times. . .

5.7.3 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be correct by the competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of fire . . .

However, given the squib sound

5.7.6 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition.

The shooter should have been stopped the second a squib was suspected. If there is not a squib, he gets the re-shoot. Since he was not stopped, he should have been DQ'd the moment he broke the 180. No question, no matter what he or anyone else in the squad says.

Edited November 15, 2005 by davidball

[mcoliver]

DQ.

20+ years of shooting and he probably never learned because nobody really "taught" him.

[Flexmoney]

At any level match...always follow the rulebook.

If you (RO) felt there was a squib, the proper procedure is to stop the shooter.

On the other hand...the shooter did go on to earn a DQ. No doubt about that.

Please, try to get out of the "it's a club match" mindset.

[George]

Muzzle uprange, sweeping an RO with a gun while violating the 180!!!

SEND HIM HOME. He earned the DQ, give it to him! Any match, any place, any time PERIOD

Leniency is crazy in a situation like this. Sheesh!! I cannot believe anyone thought that might be OK in any conceivable circumstance, ever!

BTW, a reshoot is a much better alternative to a blown gun. You should have said STOP the moment you thought it was a squib. The consequences of allowing a shooter to continue when there is concern are not optimum, better to have a reshoot and say you are sorry to that than the other.

--

Regards,

[Bigbadaboom]

Sorry but if the guy has been shooting IPSC for 20 years and everything played out as was stated then he should be D.Q.ed for life IMHO.

[BSeevers]

Never feel bad about letting a muzzle cover you

[Merlin Orr]

Never feel bad about letting a muzzle cover you

Huh? Say what, Bill?

[hmp32]

I don't see why you should feel bad about DQ'ing the guy. If not for the muzzle violation, for failing to be a sportsman.

Personally, in that *other* sport, I got DQ'd at a qualification match. The RO was actually partly to blame. He stopped using range commands when I failed to re-load properly. He used a familar, you messed up tone of voice: "Oh Henry...." and I turned around pointing the muzzle you know where.

However, I am still the one with the gun in my hand. If there had been an accident, the overwhelming responsiblity is mine. Sure, he did some thing to encorage an unsafe situation. But so what? Again, I have the gun in my hand.

At the end of the day, I certainly learned two things:

1. I am now more aware of the environment ROs create.

2. When being an RO (not just for IPSC/IDPA), but just at

the Range I belong to, I have a real appreciation for

handling people I know just as I wold anyone else at

the range. Keep to the basics of range commands in

and RO situation and do not let personal familularity change

that discpline.

[Skywalker]

I never got the meaning of this "it's a club match" thing...

To me a club match is the first playground you get into, the place where you learn first, before attending big matches. If you don't get it right at the very beginning, you'll never learn correctly.

It's NOT a place where the rules (especially the safety rules) can be relaxed to the point of allowing and tolerating unsafe actions.

IMHO, if the DQed shooter insisted that even if he committed SEVERAL safety infractions, he didn't deserve a DQ in a club match, maybe he should consider playing a different game, with different tools...

Edited November 15, 2005 by Skywalker

[Clay1]

DQ - no need to elaborate.

Merlin, your new Avatar is truly dissgusting! Damn man, where did you get that one?

[Merlin Orr]

DQ - no need to elaborate.

Merlin, your new Avatar is truly dissgusting! Damn man, where did you get that one?

Clay,

My inspections of Hurricane Rita damaged properties are over and now I am writing up claims here in Port Arthur, TX. The avatar is indicative of my current mindset....

Edited November 15, 2005 by Merlin Orr

[John Heiter]

This weekend we had a junior shooter (age 10) step up to the line. When the buzzer went off he drew and tried to squeeze off his first round but nothing happened. Hard to tell exactly what happened from my vantage point but it looked like a bulged piece of brass was keeping the gun from going fully into battery and had jammed in there just enough that the kid couldn't clear it himself. Maybe he had just earned himself 30 mikes and 15 failures to engage but it was a club match so his dad and the RO cleared the jam and he got to start over.

Had the kid swept himself, broken the 180, or committed any sort of safety infraction, then he would have been DQ'd. As others have stated, "It's a club match" has no place in a safety call.

[scorch]

+1 to what skywalker said

[SRT Driver]

Rules are the rules..club match or not. You did the right thing.

Not only did he break the 180, he swept himself, and you in the process.

[D_4_Ever]

DQ totally appropriate.

But yes if you thought you heard a squib you probably should have stopped him for safety. Think of how you might feel if he did get it racked and a bullet happened to be in the bbl still. Then he fired the next round.

Yes, this is where I feel that I failed as the RO. To clairify, I recall that the shot didn't sound right. Couldn't decide whether it was a squib or an under-charged round. I should have stopped the shooter irregardless for safety. Would have prevented the subsequent events... Sharing this so hopefully the newer RO's won't have the same experience. Cheers.

[Clay1]

I wasn't running the shooter, (I wasn't the RO) but heard what I thought was a squib one time - the round didn't sound right. I was new at the time and said nothing because I was shooting with many experienced shooters. Luckily there was nothing lodged in the barrel. I asked about it after it was done and made the decision right there that if that ever happened again I would yell stop, even if I wasn't running the shooter. Some might get all bent out of shape, but I don't need to see anyone get hurt if the RO for whatever reason doesn't hear it and I do.

[davidball]

I asked about it after it was done and made the decision right there that if that ever happened again I would yell stop, even if I wasn't running the shooter. Some might get all bent out of shape, but I don't need to see anyone get hurt if the RO for whatever reason doesn't hear it and I do.

At a state match I was having a conversation with someone behind the line when all of a sudden three or four members of my squad began yelling "Stop." Each of them was a certified RO, none of them was currently the RO. The shooter stopped, a little to the surprise of the actual RO. The three squad members told the RO there was a squib. The RO gave the official "Stop," gave the unload and show clear, and then inspected the gun. Sure enough, squib. Saved the gun and possibly the shooter and RO. Erring on the side of safety is never a mistake, IMHO.

[Flexmoney]

D_4_Ever,

Just to be clear, I think the two events you posted about are separate.

No matter what else happens, it is the shooter's responsibility to control their gun in a safe manner.

The shooter's actions earned the DQ.

[SRT Driver]

D_4 _ever,

Do you feel guilty that you didn't stop him?

[Danva]

DQ-never feel bad or second guess yourself on a safety issue. if you end up being wrong about the squib -- reshoot

if you see him at another match ask him if he makes a habit of pointing his weapon at himself and others- he was not thinking right that day

I would think the rest of the squad would be pissed if he was not DQed

[CSEMARTIN]

D 4 Ever,

I respect your intellectual honesty.

[D_4_Ever]

D_4 _ever,

Do you feel guilty that you didn't stop him?

Not sure guilty is the right word, but I do feel as though that situation changed from a common malfunction event to an unsafe situation which I had the chance to prevent. Also I think I may have let the attitude of the other shooters in my squad affect my judgement. Sometimes there was this unspoken pressure to keep things moving... this is not to say that I didn't enjoy the matches or the people at that venue.

[SRT Driver]

I hear you. Things tend to escalate, especially when someone makes a mistake and gets DQ'd. I hate making calls like that, but they need to be made for everyone's sake.

You shouldn't feel guilty if you made the call that you felt was appropriate at that moment. If you were wrong, admit it and move on. But never hesitate to make a call if the situation compremises safety regardless of who it is or where you are.