Crossover And Roll

[Bear1142]

Eric,

Thanks, I enjoyed the conversation. Once again, if you need some help getting a foot in the door on the "other" side of the facility, please don't hesitate to reach out for me.

I've got some relatives in S. Florida I could visit. I may have to try and get a class scheduled.

Erik

[dirtypool40]

I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere but in a quick read through I could not find any mention of where I got the cross over and what convinced me of it.

I know lots of us are doing it, but where did we get it and is there any big, scrutinized sport that does the same thing?

Yup, almost anyone who has ever had serious raquetbell or tennis lessons will tell you this is how they move laterally. When I start explaining what I learned from my 65 yo raquetball demon dad, about half the tennis players I know go "jeez, you didn't even know that? I thought you said you were like a master or something."

So if I mentioned it before, forgive the post, otherwise, it's an idea that came from a raquetball seminar. I know other shooters have done it for years, but it's always nice to know that folks in highly scrutinized sports do it for the same reason. My mean old bastard of a dad told me about it and is now getting to serves he couldn't touch before. He's now playing in the 35 and over league....and winning. Not bad huh?

[dirtypool40]

Little thread bump, Matt (Blkbrd) and I played around with this and a video camera on the same boardwalk the other day. It has been a while for me and was definitely a good work out. We kinda “tested” this theory, using non-scientific 2x4 boards on a cowboy town, measuring how much positive movement different first steps net us.

This was the first time I had seen myself on video “attempt” to move like I want to and it was interesting. First, I still run like a buffalo in molasses, slooooooow. I am also not always getting the launch I would like, and (surprise) I’ll need some more practice.

It does look better than it did though, and when done right it just looks like the movement “fits” the distance between positions, with no extra steps. That’s more a function of small steps and coming in soft, but it is progress.

The other thing I saw was a lot of my old habits, in trying to get Matt to try it my way. He was doing the same “step back to go forward” I used to, and when you see it on tape, it really stands out. It doesn’t feel fast to cross over, but when you see it on tape, stepping back to go forward looks sooooooooo counter productive.

Counting boards on the cowtown we worked on here’s what we found.

Moving to the right, using your right foot as the base line.

Stepping back to go forward, you pick up the left foot and plant it two boards to the left of it’s original position in order to “launch”. Your first step is about 8” the wrong direction, and a good two feet from that right foot. You made Negative progress with your first move. Sure you pop a little “wheelie” and look very active, but you aren’t actually moving in the direction you want to yet.

When you do finally pick up that right foot, you move it about six inches, and about .3 seconds after someone who stepped with the right foot. Remember; when you “step back to go forward” it’s actually your second step that starts progress.

Stepping with the right foot first, is easy and quick, once you get the habit. It “feels” quick and you are not stepping backwards first. It does make it easy to snag on a box if you drag your feet, and the first step only covers about 4-8” inches (or it did for us anyway). In my theory, this is the lesser of two evils but still only halfway to doing it the best way.

Cross stepping with the left foot is tougher to form a habit with, and just doesn’t feel fast. It’s almost impossible to snag on a box, as you are stepping over it with the left foot, and that first step is a full stride length in the right direction.

In our little experiment it was roughly 18-30”, about 6, 2x4 boards.

Try it, mark it off on your local boardwalk or in the sand. See how far that first step moves you.

What do you guys think?

[spook]

This is not really a solid argument in this discussion, but I checked Eric Grauffel's DVDs last night. I couldn't find one cross-step in both DVD's.

Now, I'm not saying that this means the described technique is not as good because the current World Champ doesn't use it, but Eric is a guy who knows his stuff when it comes to movement in a stage...

If I got this all wrong please excuse me. This thread needs pictures!

[dirtypool40]

Spook, you’re right, you don’t see it in it’s pure, “laboratory” form very often. I shot the the whole S FL sectional and watched tapes to see my movement. Course design never called / allowed a perfect textbook case.

I see the cross over step as something learned from another sport, that I know, objectively moves me further than other techniques, and I will use it whenever possible. Yes, there are times a quick step with the leading foot is called for, and also times when we shoot entering a position, instead of backing out, or the hard targets first instead of the “ducks”.

Hell there are even times, (like a foot activator?) where you might want to enter lead foot first, but again, in general, and maybe just for me, this is a theory I am working on, and for now at least, will use when I can find opportunity to do so.

Good point though. Who am I to say the emperor is naked? Just kidding.

[XRe]

I think that, in the end, different physical capabilities and styles (ie, comfort with shooting on the lean/move, etc) will perhaps results in different techniques being used by top level shooters.

I think the objective work you're doing, DP, is probably the best way to determine what actually works for you. It's good to know that, from a flat footed start, standing straight up, that starting your movement in the direction you need to go works out to be quicker for you.

That said - it seems like the guys who *move* quick (Todd, JB, Travis) can use the "step back first" as a springboard to move hard left/right, etc - and it works out better for *them*. This is where personal style comes in - and athletic abilities, etc. Then you look at someone like TGO, who can pretty much move however he wants, and it's all good... The stuff I've seen of Blake looks like that, too - his feet just move about, seemingly in no planned way, just quick and always propelling his upper body to where it needs to go to get the shooting done. Those guys (except TGO) all move like wide receivers - they're lightning quick, lithe, and agile.

Me, well... I seem to move more like a guard or center... Well, maybe a linebacker, I don't know... I'm working on it, though. I find the more I focus on the fundamentals of movement, the quicker I get - and mainly it just feels more smooth, not faster (which is probably the right thing, right?). I've used the crossover a couple of times, now, and it seems to be real smooth and gets me moving right away. I've also found cases where other techniques work out better for me, depending on the movement involved. And, shooting L-10, on tight field courses you sometimes don't have to worry so much about movement, cause it's only two steps and you're reloading in them anyway, so....

Anyhow, you got me thinking and trying and evaluating - and that's really what this is all about, anyway...

Quick edit to add - seems like the crossover works best for me when it's impractical to exit while shooting, or when I'm shooting in the direction I'm moving while leaving. Otherwise, the "shoot while stepping in the exit direction" works best. "Step back first" seems to help when I'm in a real awkard position with my weight in the opposite direction of where I need to go - and I do it by picking that offside foot up and out, so it forces my weight low at the same time... hope that makes sense...

Edited January 31, 2006 by XRe

[dirtypool40]

Dave, absolutely. This idea is a lab experiment of what would work best IN THEORY in the old box to box style. If you let me back out while shooting and shoot into the next position, I'll do it. And in some tight spots you can't cross over.

There's definately more than one way to skin this rascal, but like you said, while I am not married to it, it's what's working for me, and what I am working on right now.

[Jake Di Vita]

I know you used a video camera, but did you time it?

I've learned the hard way that what feels and looks fastest isn't always true.

It also largely depends on the final shots you are taking in the position. I always recommend mastering both motions because there are times one is more effective than the other.

I'll go ahead and put a stop watch on it later today and post my results.

[Clay1]

One of the things that has helped my when timing these simple drills is to make the shots easy. If the shots are easy I am timing my movement and not how long it takes me to aquire a difficult shot.

I was at the club within the last week shooting with a master class open shooter and an A class limited shooter. We started to discuss movement. I spoke of crossing over and the A class shooter said that leading with your front foot is way faster as that is how they do it in baseball to steal a base. He said that my cross over was wrong.

The real deal is what is faster for you. When I put a timer to it the cross over is the fastest for me. Like they say YMMV. I was justing running movement drills on Sunday. Went to the range at 9:00 am took off between 12:30 and 1:30 then returned and shot until 4 pm. Now that was a day at the range. By the way with all of the sprints my legs really felt it the next day.

I put up one box and had a close 5 yard type of target then sat up another box with a seperate close target. At the beep I already had the gun up and broke the shot (no need to work on draw when I am trying to isolate a movement). Break the shot and move and shoot as soon as you enter the next box. This way I can just time the movement and see what works best for me. I'm too inconsistant with the stop watch, the timer works best for me.

[eric nielsen]

DP

Something you might play with is shooting one foot flat on the ground and one foot w/heel off the ground. Especially to change direction of movement, ex. coming in right-to-left then leaving left-to-right. Which heel & where is a work in progress.

Still working out the differences on the timer but it helps the leaning shots like both-sides-of-a-barricade or leaving foot-fault-and-shoot-outside-a-wall positions. Do you lean enough to see the first target only then lean, IDPA-style, or pop out & see everything at once then hose? Some questions on body mechanics really.

[dirtypool40]

I know you used a video camera, but did you time it?

I've learned the hard way that what feels and looks fastest isn't always true.

It also largely depends on the final shots you are taking in the position. I always recommend mastering both motions because there are times one is more effective than the other.

I'll go ahead and put a stop watch on it later today and post my results.

Jake and Clay.

Once I thought I understood what I was after I tried it on the timer FIRST, because like you said, it’s hard to be objective.

I set up a one variable test; movement to the first shot, going forward about 5y to a 7y alpha. FOR ME (your results may vary) it was about .30 faster crossing over than taking the little quick step with the lead foot. It was WAY faster than the step back to go forward junk I was doing a year ago.

In moving laterally there is less of a difference, about .20 for me so far, because I was pretty quick at the “baseball lead off” / same side quick step you are talking about. It took me months after TJ to convert to that from the dreaded “pop-a-wheely” but once I did I FELT fast, and actually was improving.

Back to “crossing over”; The practice session I spoke of with Blkbrd / Matt, was just like you said, a standing start, with four 10y alphas, then about 5y movement to a second position and easy shots, then about 5-7 y movement to a final position and about the same shots.

In our experiment, I was about .30 second faster PER movement. I was shooting a limited gun, him an open gun, but the targets were pretty easy and I am a class higher, so I figure it’s a wash. We both run like drunk buffalos, so that was even too.

For me, although it FEELS slower, the crossover helps with pure distance on the first step, which translates to time.

Entering on the trailing foot (or rolling in as I described it earlier) helps more with how early I can fire quality shots, gaining a little time, but also stability and points.

Again, your results may vary, but I would be interested in your results if you have time to play with it.

[spook]

I am definately going to play with this. All the shooting stuff that has been discussed here is great, but I don't recall any in depth analytical movement discussions (though I'm just blurting this out right now). There is so much time to win with movement. It might be time to analyze it

I know I've spent waaaay to little time on this subject

Edited January 31, 2006 by spook

[eric nielsen]

There's so much time to be saved that most instructors don't give away the secrets for free.

[dirtypool40]

Hmm, you've got a point, maybe we should shut up.

[spook]

No way man! Why? If I can learn to shave off .30 seconds x 4 movements on every long course I'd be glad to learn how and discuss various techniques.

Time to dig in on this subject

[dirtypool40]

Weeeelll, you’d have to be dig things really bass ackwards (like I was) to pick up that much, but it’s working for me.

I can’t wait to hear what you guys get with the timer.

[vincent]

If I could accomplish one thing this season it would be to actually figure out some ways to improve my movement skills.

I look forward to hearing more information on this thread. What I find the most interesting is what methods you are using to determine what works best for you.

Thanks again for the info.

[Jake Di Vita]

K guys,

I was almost exactly the same using the drop-step-push as the crossover and roll. I was a hair faster (.1 or so) using the drop-step-push, but that may be because I work on that style of leaving the most.

So from that I think it boils down to body type and preference. In the drop-step-push method, it takes you a little longer to get going, but get going faster. The length it takes for me to get moving is less than most simply because I was blessed with very fast feet. Someone that has slower feet would probably benefit from the crossover and roll more.

By and large, I will always use both. What determines which method of exiting I use is the stage at hand, the direction of my movement, the distance to the next position, the difficulty of the shot leaving the position, and the terrain.

[ong45]

Here's something i noticed about forward movement. A little different but close enough.

The example is the flying M stage that they used to shoot at the steel challenge, shooter shoots 2 steel from box A, then moves forward 6 feet into box B to shoot the remaining 3 plates.

The way most people shot the first box was to start to lean as they shot plate #2 . Jerry M was really good at this , he would appear to be inclined 45 degrees as he indexed to plate 2. Really risky but also fast if you got away with it.

JJ Racaza was the only one i remember using the drop step push . It didn't seem that he should be faster but damn if he wasn't. Still trying to figure that one out.

But since we dont shoot flying M anymore........

[PaulW]

Eric, we'll definately have to mess around with this in one of our practice sessions.

[dirtypool40]

PaulW and Jake.

I'm NOT blessed with quick feet, and have to claim to be smooth, just becasue slow is all I can muster.

That being said, next time we get together to practice, maybe this Sunday? we can set up something like Times two that is definitely movement based and run it the three different ways, changing only the way we leave the box.

Running that drill with two or three shooters would be about as scientific as we're going to be able to be.

I think Jake's right though, different strokes for different folks.

[Bear1142]

Guys,

One thing to consider when you're setting up these drills is the distance you're attempting to move. Make sure you have enough distance between shooting arrays to take at least three steps. Anything less than three steps are positioning steps. Positioning steps will not allow you to properly evaluate your techniques. I would use a minimum of 7 yards between arrays. What you are really trying to evaluate is which technique will allow you to accelerate better. Acceleration and deceleration are what dominate good movement technique, not speed. Proper technique allows for efficient movement and maximum acceleration.

Erik

[dirtypool40]

I agree Eric. I don't want to have to count out dance steps. I want to blast out of a position, run a little, brake, and then enter the next one properly.

(For me) It's all about the good launch and a precise smooth entrance into the next position.

On the other hand, the shorter distance you test, assuming it meets the "non-positioning steps" criteria, the greater difference will seem on the clock.

When I first tried one movement of this, I was about .30 faster, just for changing how I left. Over 20 yards of running from A to B, that ain't much, but over four five yeard positions, .30 each movement would be worth having.

But you're right, you gotta get out of the first couple steps or you are just dancing.

[XRe]

But you're right, you gotta get out of the first couple steps or you are just dancing.

And we all know how afraid you are of doing that!!!! :lol:

[dirtypool40]

Dave, come on, I'm still in therapy.