Review of Shot Timer for scoring

[nasty618]

Is it legal for scoring RO to review the shots on the timer for scoring the stage? 

 

Some examples of when this could happen:

 

- 2 misses on a target, but shooter seems to think he fired at it. RO is not sure and is trying to determine if this is also an FTSA or just 2 mikes. Review of the shot timer shows 22 shots fired instead of 24 (12 targets, 24 shots in WSB), indicating two shots were not fired and an FTSA.

- at the very end of the COF, RO drops the timer or bumps it on a wall or another object, creating an "extra shot" in the timer.  Reviewing the timer, the "last shot fired" can be seen and using the next to last shot can be used, giving the shooter the final time for the stage.

 

I cant seem to find anything in the rule book regarding this, so i have to assume this would be permitted.  Did i miss it?

Edited February 24, 2020 by nasty618

[George Jones]

It's not really a rules issue - it's a technique issue.

In the first case, my answer is NO.  It's a timer, not a shot counter simply because not all shots might be recorded.  FTSA penalties are based upon observation by the RO(s), not by some uncertain shot count display.

In the second case, if the timer is inadvertently affected (such as by ejected brass at U&SC), it's a simple mater of either looking at the last spilt time (if displayed by that model) and determining the correct final shot time, or by using the REVIEW function to determine the same thing (being careful not to delete the data in the process).  Proper handling of the timer by the RO should avoid those problems.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by George Jones

[nasty618]

Makes sense, thank you, George! 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, George Jones said:

It's not really a rules issue - it's a technique issue.

In the first case, my answer is NO.  It's a timer, not a shot counter simply because not all shots might be recorded.  FTSA penalties are based upon observation by the RO(s), not by some uncertain shot count display.

In the second case, if the timer is inadvertently affected (such as by ejected brass at U&SC), it's a simple mater of either looking at the last spilt time (if displayed by that model) and determining the correct final shot time, or by using the REVIEW function to determine the same thing (being careful not to delete the data in the process).  Proper handling of the timer by the RO should avoid those problems.

 

This is why I ALWAYS hold the timer up where I can see it tick over on the last shot, and make a mental note of the time. When I hold it up to verify to call out the time it’s easy to recognize a different time

[MemphisMechanic]

Last year our MD was shooting pcc and finished a stage on a wide open 7 yard target which everyone was engaging with .15-.25 slits. No makeup shot was fired at it.

 

After two other guys of similar skill ran the course, he pointed it out and we all knew his time was wrong. Other As shot the stage in 15ish, and he was something like 21 seconds despite having a run without large errors.

 

Fortunately the scorekeepers were using a CED7000. That is my dryfire timer, so I know it’s settings rather well. It stores the last 10 runs in every detail, and I was able to review back nine shooters. There, obvious as hell, was the 5.95ish second gap between his final .18 split... and the timer picking up something else. None of us who saw him shoot had any doubt at all.
 

We edited his score, which put him squarely in line with similarly skilled shooters, and went on about our day.

 

The rules leave room for common sense solutions to situations like this. If in doubt, what is the fair thing to do? (Both for the guy who shot, AND for everyone else involved.)

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Last year our MD was shooting pcc and finished a stage on a wide open 7 yard target which everyone was engaging with .15-.25 slits. No makeup shot was fired at it.

 

After two other guys of similar skill ran the course, he pointed it out and we all knew his time was wrong. Other As shot the stage in 15ish, and he was something like 21 seconds despite having a run without large errors.

 

Fortunately the scorekeepers were using a CED7000. That is my dryfire timer, so I know it’s settings rather well. It stores the last 10 runs in every detail, and I was able to review back nine shooters. There, obvious as hell, was the 5.95ish second gap between his final .18 split... and the timer picking up something else. None of us who saw him shoot had any doubt at all.
 

We edited his score, which put him squarely in line with similarly skilled shooters, and went on about our day.

 

The rules leave room for common sense solutions to situations like this. If in doubt, what is the fair thing to do? (Both for the guy who shot, AND for everyone else involved.)

 

  If he signed a score sheet Or approved it on a device It should not have been changed. I mean , that’s what the rule says right?
 On the other hand I’ve seen a well known shooter at a level III come back the next DAY and question their time on a stage from the day before and Arb it and get a reshoot. 
 I say both cases the score should stand

 

 

[George Jones]

Mutual consent.

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

  If he signed a score sheet Or approved it on a device It should not have been changed.

No one signs anything at a local match, and you know it.

 

The right thing happened and everyone was given the score they actually earned that day. That’s the intent of the entire USPSA Rulebook, cover to cover. I wish more shooters and especially certain match officials would keep that in mind during a match.

 

The ROs job is to score everyone fairly and accurately to the best of his ability. Not to screw them over because the rulebook supports doing so. In this case every single person on the squad knew the time had been +5’d.

 

If I were running him at a major instead of a local and I were certain of that, I’d still immediately give him a reshoot. 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, George Jones said:

Mutual consent.

[driver8M3]

For those who didn't get George's reference...it's actually in the rule book:

 

9.7.4 When a score has been affirmed by both the competitor and Range Officer, the score (whether on paper or electronic device) is considered conclusive evidence that the time, scores and penalties as recorded are accurate and uncontested. The score (whether on paper or electronic device) is deemed to be definitive. It may only be changed to add penalties under Rule 8.6.2, or to correct arithmetical errors, or by mutual consent of the competitor and the originating Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision. Changes are defined as modifications to the score sheet after both parties have signed off on the score sheet.

[IVC]

Getting the correct time recorded is a matter of understanding how the timer works and there is nothing wrong with reviewing the time to determine whether the timer picked up something after the last shot. RO uses timer as a tool and the correct use is to figure out the time, not to blindly read the display. For the same reason RO cannot use timer to figure out any procedurals during the course of fire - procedurals are called by RO as they occur and trying to deduce something from timer would be an easy arbitration case: "Did you see the shooter fail to shoot at a target? No. Case closed." 

 

As a practical matter, I will confirm the timer is picking up first few shots, then I will make sure I watch the timer at the very end both to ensure the last shot is picked up and that nothing extra is. I will only memorize the ballpark time (seconds) so I can make the correct call if something bumps it or it picks up some other noise. If the timer didn't record the last shot, it's a reshoot. I make sure I'm very close to PCCs for this particular reason. 

[nasty618]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

For the same reason RO cannot use timer to figure out any procedurals during the course of fire - procedurals are called by RO as they occur and trying to deduce something from timer would be an easy arbitration case: "Did you see the shooter fail to shoot at a target? No. Case closed."

 

I hear what you're saying and as George said earlier - "NO, cant use the timer in this case" (referring to the example from my original post).  But i am still not sure it's that clear cut... Please forgive me if i am nit-picking... i just want to make sure i fully understand the rules and reasoning here.

 

If this example goes all the way to arbitration., will the Arb Committee ask the RO something along the lines of "what method did you use to determine the procedural penalty"? 10.2.7 does not indicate HOW the penalty should be called or observed by the RO.  So if the RO is not sure and the shooter is not sure and the timer shows 2 less shots fired AND it's not against the rules to review the timer....  then the RO has enough information to make the FTSA call. And if the timer failed to record two shots... Unless as Sarge suggested you kept an eye on the last shot fired time - shouldnt we then question if it's functioning properly and even issue a reshoot? 

 

Let me ask these two leading questions:

 

What rule would you, as the shooter, state for the reason of your appeal for the presumably incorrectly applied FTSA penalty?

 

If you are on that squad and you clearly saw the shooter not engage the target, will you be OK with the FTSA not given?

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by nasty618

[Diver123]

Dont need a rule. The RO cant just assume that the timer picked up all the shots. Ask the RO how do you know the timer got all the shots? The main point here in your question is "if the RO is not sure" then they can not give a PE. If you can not tell me with 100% certainty which target I didn't shot at then you have no ground to stand on. Imagine this as the conversation by the RO. I didn't see what target was skipped nor am I sure if the shooter skipped a target but I want to give a PE based on the shot timer not recording the minimum number of rounds fired. What if they took more shots than required but didn't shoot at a target? Are you gonna review the timer and say they must have just missed the target cos I have 24 shots on a 22 round stage?  Shot timers can miss shots. Especially with PCC on a stage where the shooter is retreating. You as the RO cant stay close enough to me to record every shot without risk of me over running you. They are just to quite. Dont bother asking the shooter if they skipped a target. Its not on them to tell you how to score the stage. Its not on the peanut gallery to score the stage either. 

[IVC]

18 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

What rule would you, as the shooter, state for the reason of your appeal for the presumably incorrectly applied FTSA penalty?

The rule would be quoted by the RO and recorded as 9.5.7. The arbitration request would be to challenge the penalty assessed under rule 9.5.7 because you did engage the target (in reality, this wouldn't go to arbitration and would be resolved by RM under 9.6.6).

 

RO would have to specify how he determined the FTSA. If he says "I watched the competitor and he didn't fire any shots in that direction," then he wins. If he says "I didn't see the infraction, but I looked at the timer" then you win because nothing matters (crossed out) if the RO cannot state the infraction. The procedure is described in 9.6 and you would be challenging the FTSA call using rule 9.6.4 at the moment the RO is scoring the target in question and giving you the procedural under 9.5.7. Further, 11.1.3 disallows any audio, video or photographic evidence and using timer with records audio would clearly fall into that category. However, even if there was no 11.1.3 (which is part of arbitration process and not necessarily directly addressing decisions under 9.6.6), it's still assumed that the RO will make calls based on what he sees. 

 

18 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

If you are on that squad and you clearly saw the shooter not engage the target, will you be OK with the FTSA not given?

No, I wouldn't, but I cannot be the one to issue the penalty and the best I could do is raise the issue with the RO, CRO and RM. I don't think that there is a mechanism to deal with "corrupt range officials all the way to the top." 

 

In reality, if an RO misses a call and it's in good faith, there is little one can do. Sure anyone can point to a no-shoot that the RO didn't see or a hole in hard-cover that would make that Alpha a Mike, but beyond pointing it out there is no real remedy except to talk to the RM who would presumably replace such an official.

 

 

 

[nasty618]

Makes sense, yes. Thank you!