Bullets Falling Out Of Cases

[rwagner24]

Hey Guys,

            I started shooting open revolver a few weeks ago and I’m having an issue with my bullets falling out of the front of the cylinder. Below is a summary of my reloading.

Dillon 650 with Dillon dies

Mr. Bullet Feeder

Starline brass

Xtreme 115gn plated bullets

3.0 Clays powder

1.145oal

            I have started over with my crimp die setting with the Dillon recommended height and have adjusted it incrementally to a point that is ridiculous low and makes and distinct crimp in the plating. I shoot a 929 that holds 8 rounds. If I shoot 5 shots all three that are left either look like the picture or actually come out so far the cylinder won’t turn. I’m not sure what to do. I have the Dillon carbide resizing die and the bullet feeder die is set to put the minimum bell needed for the bullet to sit on the case.

 

 

 

[lonestardiver]

You need a roll crimp.
Your seating die should do that and you will need to adjust it or you can do it in a separate step with a lee factory crimp die.

Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim unlike rimless cartridges like 9mm, 40, 10mm, 45acp which require a taper crimp since they headspace on the mouth of the brass.

[Guy Neill]

If you feel your crimp is okay (is it a taper or roll crimp?), then it may be a matter of the interplay between the case wall thickness, resizing die, bullet diameter  and expander ball.  The crimp is not all that should be holding the bullet.

 

Also, too much crimp can swage the bullet small (since it does not spring back) resulting in an undersize bullet.  Can you turn the bullets by hand after loading?  Roll crimps are generally better for revolvers since they tend to pull bullets while semi-autos tend to push bullets in.

 

  If the resizing die is not sizing enough, or the expander ball is too large compared to the billet diameter, there may not be adequate tension holding the bullet.   What is the bullet diameter?  The expander ball should be about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter.  Thin wall cases may not get enough sizing, even with a good sizing die, to give good bullet tension.

 

Guy

[rwagner24]

It’s a standard Dillon taper crimp die and Mr. Bullet feeder expander. Also standard Dillon sizing die. 

[rwagner24]

The bullets measure .356

[looking4reloadingdeals]

When I had this problem I wasn’t fully resizing the case. I had to reset the resizing die so it was touching the shell plate. At some point I adjusted the die and it was way off and I was getting bullets that were easily pushed into the cases with very minimal pressure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwagner24]

I checked the height of my sizing die today and made sure It was adjusted down until it touched the shell plate.  Might have to do some testing with a lighter, coated bullet and less powder.

[iflyskyhigh]

The expander ball should be about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter.  Thin wall cases may not get enough sizing, even with a good sizing die, to give good bullet tension.
 
Guy

Pistol dies don’t have expander balls????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iflyskyhigh]

That much crimp will for sure ruin the plating and cause accuracy issues.

Plated bullets really are unable to take any type of crimping action the would lead to more “neck tension”. The platting is relatively soft and any deformation will lead to the platting separating at velocity and typically ruin accuracy.

With played bullets it’s more than likely that the only crimp you will be able to use is just enough to take any bell back out.

Of course nothing holds true 100% of the time, but that tends to be the case with plated more often than not.

I have also run into many plated bullets that are a tad undersized.

Combine this with a shorter length bullet since it’s 115gr, and your coal length of 1.145”, and you may just have a slightly undersized bullet with not enough of the bullet down inside the case for the neck to hang onto? That was a little convoluted, does it make sense? Not sure how else to say it.

May I suggest seating your bullet deeper just as experiment to see if makes any difference?

It may just turn out to be the case that that bullet case gun combo may not work together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iflyskyhigh]

I checked the height of my sizing die today and made sure It was adjusted down until it touched the shell plate.  Might have to do some testing with a lighter, coated bullet and less powder.

Lead bullets tend to be the opposite of plated, and sized larger than .355. So a coated .356 or bigger bullet may be the ticket. Especially in a revolver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iflyskyhigh]

The bullets measure .356

Sorry. I missed this one. Disregard my undersized comment. I’m surprised a plated bullet is .356.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iflyskyhigh]

It’s a standard Dillon taper crimp die and Mr. Bullet feeder expander. Also standard Dillon sizing die. 

Another though. I know some people have zero issues with the Dilllon dies, but I actually switched to Lee dies. Both u dies and even regular Lee dies.

Reason being, the Dillon dies have a radiused opening which is intended to allow a case to enter more easily on progressive presses if they happen to be just slightly off center as the press is indexing. In my case I found the Lee dies (especially in range pick up 9MM) to size the case down just a tiny bit further.

Again, just a though. I wouldn’t run out and buy new dies until you maybe try some of the other things suggested first.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwagner24]

I’ll experiment tomorrow with a little shorter oal and make sure my crimp die is adjusted just to take the bell out. Probably can reduce the charge some with a shorter oal too. 

[Guy Neill]

Okay - call it the expander plug then.  It enters the case, expanding it to an ID to hold the bullet, then, at the top, it flares the case.

 

Whatever you want to call it, it performs the same function as the expander ball in a bottle-neck die, with the added ability to flare the case mouth.

 

Guy

[Guy Neill]

1 hour ago, rwagner24 said:

The bullets measure .356

That is before loading - right?  What is the diameter of some of those that fell out?

 

If small, they may have been swaged by an excessive crimp.  If not small. refer back to the expander ball diameter, case wall thickness and  sizer die action.  Adjusting the sizer all the way down should help, but only minimally for a straight-wall casing.

 

Guy

[iflyskyhigh]

Okay - call it the expander plug then.  It enters the case, expanding it to an ID to hold the bullet, then, at the top, it flares the case.

 

Whatever you want to call it, it performs the same function as the expander ball in a bottle-neck die, with the added ability to flare the case mouth.

 

Guy

 

I’m the first one to admit that I could be wrong, but there is no such thing in pistol dies.

 

The only thing inside pistol dies is a decapping pin. It plays no part in the sizing operation. Pistol dies just simply squeeze the case walls back down to spec.

 

Are you taking about a Lyman M die? That has a plug that expands. But has nothing to do with resizing.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rwagner24]

The ones that fell out still seem to measure right at .356 - .357. My first station deprimes and resizes. 

[Guy Neill]

Okay - in a three die set for straight-wall cases you;

 

Die #1 - sizes the exterior of the case and decaps the spent primer.

 

Die #2 - expands the ID of the case and adds a flare to the case mouth.

 

Die #3 - seats the bullet and capable of crimping.

 

The part in Die #2 that is capable of flaring the case mouth also has a portion that extends into the case a short distance - expanding the interior to the proper ID for the bullet.  This cylindrical portion should be about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter and is the expander plug (or ball).

\

The Lyman "M" die is just another form of expander plug that produces a cylindrical flare instead of the more common tapered flare.

 

Guy 

[rwagner24]

Ok and that part in station 2 was swapped out with the addition of my bullet feeder. I’ll have to have a closer look/measurement of that. 

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Sorry. I missed this one. Disregard my undersized comment. I’m surprised a plated bullet is .356.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Berrys plates bullets are made at .356


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iflyskyhigh]

Okay - in a three die set for straight-wall cases you;  

Die #1 - sizes the exterior of the case and decaps the spent primer.

 

Die #2 - expands the ID of the case and adds a flare to the case mouth.

 

Die #3 - seats the bullet and capable of crimping.

 

The part in Die #2 that is capable of flaring the case mouth also has a portion that extends into the case a short distance - expanding the interior to the proper ID for the bullet.  This cylindrical portion should be about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter and is the expander plug (or ball).

\

The Lyman "M" die is just another form of expander plug that produces a cylindrical flare instead of the more common tapered flare.

 

Guy 

 

 

Yea. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. And it may just be that this form of communication is leading to us misunderstanding each other.

 

But...I’m pretty sure I’m understanding exactly what you are saying, and you may want to rethink it a little....

 

He’s using a progressive press so the expanding is done by a powder funnel, in this case a Mr Bullet feeder powder funnel (excellent choice by the way).

 

Second, and I say this knowing that I don’t own every die set out there and there may be something unbeknownst to me, but even in your single stage expander scenario, the second die, the expander die has nothing to do with “sizing” the case beyond expanding the case mouth to accept a bullet. It’s works COMPLETELY different than a rifle sizing die.

 

You run a pistol case through the sizing die which squeezes the case walls back down to spec and that’s it. Nothing else. Nowhere in the process of sizing pistol brass does the case go through any other type of sizing. The expander, powder funnel, flaring die, whatever you want to call it has zero to do with the sizing of the case in terms of neck tension. It flairs the case mouth to accept a bullet. That’s it. That’s all. Nothing else.

 

This is the “expander” from my Lee dies that I only use when using my 550 in the manner of a single stage like press. Nothing to do with sizing is the manner that you talking about. Just expands the case mouth to accept a bullet.

 

 

This is the expander from my Lyman M die. I use them to flare the mouth of bottle necked rifle cartridges when loading coated lead bullet and flat based bullets on the 650 so I can use the Mr Bullet feeder. Nothing to do with sizing in the manner you are describing. Just expands the case mouth to accept a bullet.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AHI]

over crimping will actually make the bullets loose

[AHI]

this may help

 

[rwagner24]

Great information thank you !

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, iflyskyhigh said:

 

Sorry. I missed this one. Disregard my undersized comment. I’m surprised a plated bullet is .356.
 

 

I think most “plated,” not jacket, 9mm are .356, at least that’s been my observation. 
 

The only time I have had with bullets falling out was when I first started and use reloading and used the Lee FCD to “fix” my problems. It swaged the bullets down and the brass rebounded, making them loose. I suspected something similar is going on here.