3-gun Newbie Need Suggestions

[wyldelee]

I want to start shooting local 3-Gun matches and was interested in suggestions you have for a shotgun that might work for women.

I am 5'3" and about 125 lbs. so the trade offs between weight and recoil are definitely an issue. I also have small hands so I have been shooting a 9mm single stack Sig or H&K in pistol competitions.

I have been practicing with a Rem 870 12g marine magnum, and the recoil and weight have been a bit punishing, so any suggestions will be truly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Lee

[kellyn]

2 words for you: 20 gauge.

Get an Remington 20 gauge 1187 Sportsman Youth Model, add 8 round mag tube, ez loader, 3gungear 20 gauge shell holders, shorten stock if need be (not likely it's already shortened), add whatever sights you like and start shooting!

[Airedale]

Lee,

I second kellyn. Get a 20 gauge. If the recoil is still a bit stiff, remove the buttplate and add a ziplock with lead shot in it (and duct tape the bag completely when you find the right weight). The extra weight will absorb some recoil.

Mrs. Airedale shoots a 12 ga. Benelli M1 but she's an "old" shotgunner. She isn't too fond of the Benelli's recoil either.

Good luck and have fun,

Dave

[wyldelee]

Hi Kellyn and Airedale,

thanks for the suggestion. Where would I get the 8 round mag tube and ez loader for the 20 gauge 11-87? What type of sights do you recommend for that shotgun?

Thanks again,

Lee

2 words for you: 20 gauge.

Get an Remington 20 gauge 1187 Sportsman Youth Model, add 8 round mag tube, ez loader, 3gungear 20 gauge shell holders, shorten stock if need be (not likely it's already shortened), add whatever sights you like and start shooting!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[George]

Ya know, I'm gonna buck the trend here and say 12 gauge all the way. The selection of ammo for the tweeny is slim and not that cheap comparatively.

The Remmy 11-87 gas gun will keep the recoil down. 2.75 Dram 1.125 OZ loads will take steel down fine through a mod choke and lessen the felt recoil some more. A Pachmayr sissy pad on the buttstock and now you've got a real soft shooting "Gage" that won't cost an arm and a leg to feed and find/build the parts for.

Besides, with the possible adoption of the new IPSC 2006 shotgun PF rules, even though 480 pf is legal (20 will make that kinda OK), the target calibration will be done with 520+ PF ammo and 20's have a whole lot tougher time getting to that point. Even with a tight choke and hefty shot, 20's won't cut it easily. Only the 4 buck stuff and larger seems to do the job in the "tweeny gage" in all situations.

I know someone who has campaigned a Remmy Tweeny for quite a few years now. I know from what I have seen that it's a PITA in the long run for reasons having to do with power and ammo availability and parts and so on....

Wait till the first time you run short at a match and can't borrow, or buy any tweeny shells where you are.

--

Regards,

[wyldelee]

Good point George. Is there a big weight difference in the youth 20ga. and the full size 12 gauge models? Also is there a way to shorten the stock on the 12 gauge--the Length of pull is a little too long ? Would you specifically recommend the 11-87 or would you look at some of the other gas options (SX2 or Browning Gold)? I think Browning has a Gold Lady's clay shooter?

I really appreciate the input.

Thanks,

Lee

Ya know, I'm gonna buck the trend here and say 12 gauge all the way. The selection of ammo for the tweeny is slim and not that cheap comparatively.

The Remmy 11-87 gas gun will keep the recoil down. 2.75 Dram 1.125 OZ loads will take steel down fine through a mod choke and lessen the felt recoil some more. A Pachmayr sissy pad on the buttstock and now you've got a real soft shooting "Gage" that won't cost an arm and a leg to feed and find/build the parts for.

Besides, with the possible adoption of the new IPSC 2006 shotgun PF rules, even though 480 pf is legal (20 will make that kinda OK), the target calibration will be done with 520+ PF ammo and 20's have a whole lot tougher time getting to that point. Even with a tight choke and hefty shot, 20's won't cut it easily. Only the 4 buck stuff and larger seems to do the job in the "tweeny gage" in all situations.

I know someone who has campaigned a Remmy Tweeny for quite a few years now. I know from what I have seen that it's a PITA in the long run for reasons having to do with power and ammo availability and parts and so on....

Wait till the first time you run short at a match and can't borrow, or buy any tweeny shells where you are.

--

Regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[George]

The standard pull on all Remmy 12's is 14" or a tad more. I am not sure if any meat can be taken out due to the recoil system. Try asking JP Rifles www.jprifles.com they specialize in the Remingtons.

Maybe the Browning or Winchester will be better for reducing pull, I am not familiar with them though. The Benelli might fit, but man they kick.

--

Regards,

[kellyn]

Hi Kellyn and Airedale,

thanks for the suggestion. Where would I get the 8 round mag tube and ez loader for the 20 gauge 11-87? What type of sights do you recommend for that shotgun?

Thanks again,

Lee

Brownells, I would think. I also think Choate makes a 20 guage tube. On my 1100 20 gauge, Jake Kempton (now of JP) made the mag tube and fit a 12 gauge easy loader to the receiver.

Sights? My 1100 has a Dawson fiber optic pistol front sight and a Williams rear sight (ghost ring). But I think a fiber front sight with a folding rear is the way to go (which is what I have on my Benelli M1)

George's comments do have merit. I have yet to shoot my 20 at a major event. You don't save any money in ammo. But if recoil is a real issue, take a look at the 20.

[Wakal]

Liota has tried:

JP 1100 "Open" 12 gauge (too heavy)

Wakal 1100 22" barrel 12 gauge (still too heavy)

"San Angelo Gun Doctor's" Saiga-20, pistol grip conversion with M4 stock and a 'melt' mounted Doctor sight: light, fast, adjustable stock, fast reloads...

This is an old picture, before the M4 stock and the Doctor mount: http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/Saiga20_proto1.JPG

The only downside is that you have the cost of the base shotgun and conversion parts...again...in the six 10-round magazines. Still, under $850 with the Doctor and everything...for a shotgun that weighs the same as a light 16" AR (and cycles almost as fast).

Alex

Edited September 27, 2005 by Wakal

[AH6IP]

May i suggest a Browning Gold 20 gauge? Light, low recoil, loads fast, and just a way cool gun, especially with a one piece magazine tube system. OH, just happen to have one of them babies!!! Weighs in at under 6 lbs, and damn it is fast, fast fast.

JL

[kellyn]

Sorry Jerry! I knew I forgot something. Another excellent recommendation.

[wyldelee]

That Browning sounds interesting. I will call you today. I went to check out the youth 11-87 at bass Pro last night and liked the weight and feel of it, but also interested in the Browning. I am a little worried about the issues that George brought up about power factor next year and the ammo and parts concerns?

Thanks Lee

May i suggest a Browning Gold 20 gauge?  Light, low recoil, loads fast, and just a way cool gun, especially with a one piece magazine tube system.  OH, just happen to have one of them babies!!!  Weighs in at under 6 lbs, and damn it is fast, fast fast.

JL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[PacMan]

A suggestion that is off the beaten path - a Tradition ALS2000. It is gas-operated 12 ga with an alloy receiver made in Turkey. Uses Remy extension tube. Loading cut off like a Benelli. It is light and fast, ask Benny Hill and KurtM Get the wood stock so that you can cut it down. I've shortened mine about 1/2", and so far it is holding up pretty well.

[George]

I hear it is possible to hog material out of an 1100 stock and reduce the pull a tad. I haven't done it, but it sounds like it can be done by any competent smith.

An 1100 with a Pachmayer Eliminator recoil pad and a shortened pull would be an optimum choice here. 2.75 Dram shells and gas operation will keep the recoil way down compared to the pump gun you are shooting now. The weight won't be bad with a shortened bbl and at just over $30/case, the lite 12 gauge shotshells are a supersaver on the pocketbook.

Still think this is a good way to look.

--

Regards,

[reneet]

Tough choice. More ammo and accessories available for the 12 gauge but Kay has a Rem 1100 20 gauge with a 15 or so cap. magazine on it. She has to reload one at a time due to no speed loaders. I personally prefer my Rem 11-87 12 gauge and have found it's not the amount of recoil so much as technique to handle it. There was this tiny lady (5' 4" ~ 120 lbs) who shot 3 gun several years ago who handled a 12 gauge as well as anyone I've ever seen because her shotgun was set up properly and she had been taught proper technique.

[Dan Sierpina]

Lee,

My wife has the Browing Gold Ladies Sporting, she love it. She just got it, and doesn't shoot IPSC anymore, so, it's for Sporting Clays. Right out of the box it's good with regular target loads. The 1 oz light loads wouldn't hold the bolt back. However, those were the first rounds fired through the new gun. The only thought on that model, is that the barrel is ported. If you want to shoot in open class it's not a problem.

Dan

[wsimpso1]

Jeez, A lot depends on hand size, arm length, and recoil tolerance.

I am a big believer that a shotgun that fits has less felt recoil.

I am also a big believer that recoil makes for a less capable shooter.

So, I want to bias towards recoil reduction, proper gun fit, and good gun balance.

Strong hand grip on pistol grip has to be pretty good. If fingers or hands are small, you gotta move the pistol grip closer to the trigger. Cut down and fit the head of the stock (where it fits into the reciever) and then shape with rasp/fillers as necessary to make the shooter's hand fit. This change alone can make a smaller person feel better because they are not crawling to reach things. This is so poorly done on many "youth" and "reduced stature" guns...

Stock length and comb fit has to be pretty good. The correct stock length does several things: It brings the weight of the gun to about the same place proportionally as a 5'10" guy with a standard stock; It allows the shooter to pull the gun into the shoulder for a good mount, which helps prevent blows to the shoulder and chops; And it feels like the other folks look when they shoot a shotgun. All positive. Then make sure that good comb contact exists. If the shooter's face wants to sit on the comb, it will prevent blows to the chops too. A padded comb works nicely here. This too tends to be poorly done on "youth" and "reduced stature" guns.

Thick pad on the butt for recoil resistence. Obvious...

Pick the barrel, both length and wieght to add weight while keeping the gun balancing between the hands. I prefer a shorter barrel with more weight to a longer barrel and less weight simply for recoil reduction, but also to speed up the handling a little. Check the weight with a long mag tube and dummy shells.

Guns. Gas ops. I like the M1100 in 12 gauge. Cheap, available, ammo choices galore, and many speed parts for them that work. Downside is that you do have to teardown/clean/oil every couple hundred rounds to keep it reliable.

Smaller bores don't do you any favors on recoil, and the hit less well.

Billski's view...

[George]

I'm with Billski, anything that hits with the same force, recoils with the same force. The power needed to knock down steel is the same whether it's 20, or 12. Choke being the same, the power needed is the same.

The twelve that fits is better than the tweeny that fits IMHO.

--

Regards,

[wyldelee]

Wow you guys are great and a wealth of information and experience.

Since I am an inexperienced newbie I must say I am gonna need some help with finding or fitting a 12ga. that will work for me. The biggest issue was mentioned by Billski with the grip and the barrel length, but the (LOP), stock length is also an issue.

I think the weight is less of a problem if I keep the barrel short and the stock and grip fit correctly and balanced --I am strong for my size.

So who could help me find or fit a 12 gauge so it fits (either an 11-87, 1100 or Browning 12ga.)?

Thanks,

Lee

[George]

You won't "find" one, it will have to be "made" for you.

Start at: http://www.jprifles.com/

They know how to customize the 1100/11-87 series very well.

--

Regards,

[wsimpso1]

Wlydelee,

Since we are talking custom stock fitted to your body and hands, you have a couple options:

Find a shotgun fitting guru near where you live, and get out the checkbook. The folks who are just nuts about stock fitting are the folks who shoot claybirds. Their gun has to shoot where they look, and some will go to extremes to get that from their guns. Skeet, trap, and sporting clays. Go to the clubs and ask for advice on smiths for fitting their guns;

Do it yourself and keep modifying until you like how it fits. You have to be a little handy with tools, but this is not hard stuff to do. Brownells has the stock wrench, butt pad, and cheek pad. Tools needed are a 1/4" wood chisel, perhaps a carving set of chisels, files, rasps, and sandpaper. You may also need epoxy putty from the hardware or car parts store or for the really trick folks, West epoxy and one of their fillers. Understand that by the time you are finished, the stock may be uglied up with carved spots and added filler, so you will probably want to paint it too. It might as well be a cheap birch stock at the outset. By the time you know what you want, you might even want to build a second one. Anyway, if you want to explore doing this yourself, get back on here. I (and others...) will help you through it.

Either way, fitting shotgun stocks is a bit of art and a bit of science. Thankfully, for our game it is not as important as for claybirds. There are books (and probably websites too) out there that cover the topic. My basic view is to watch people shooting shotguns and see who looks "right". If they also shoot well, you want your shotgun to fit you in the same way as theirs fits them. Hand on the pistol grip, face on the stock, etc.

Once the back half of the gun fits you, you can play with barrels to see what really suits you. Since there are so many barrels for M1100's out there, you could arrange to go to someone who has barrels and show up with your modified gun to try them on the gun.

If you are in SE Michigan, I can help you DIY or you can go to B. McDanial in South Lyon.

Good luck!

Billski

[kdmoore]

Another option to add would be a recoil pad on your shoulder. I haven't messed with them but several hunters I know use them. I think there are vests that are set up with the removable pads. Sorry, no url but I'm sure google can help you there.

I wanted to add this up front as this can change your stock/shoulder fitting. So if you think this is for you, do it first. Where the thing when you go to the store to handle the shotties. Pads are high tech stuff (like the recoil pads) that dampen plenty.

Good luck!

[kdmoore]

Whoa, brain fade. One other option for you would be one of the knoxx recoil reducing stocks. They are only for pumps tho. The spec ops coms to mind as it has the collapsable stock that would allow lots of lop changes.