Looking for information on REDDING 38 SUPER/9MM MICRO-ADJ TAPER CRIMP DIE

[jlow]

Anybody use this to significantly improve 9mm group size at 50 yards?  Looking to improve precision for PCC.

I have quite a bit of experience in precision rifle reloading, similar for regular 9mm pistol reloading, but no experience with precision pistol reloading.

Would appreciate hearing from someone who as done this.

[jkrispies]

I have loaded many thousands with one and wouldn't use a different seater.  It is well worth the additional cost, and I use them for .38/.357 and .45acp as well.  I crimp separately.  As far as it improving groups for a PCC, I couldn't tell you because I've been using it far longer than I've owned a PCC.  I can't even remember what it was like to load without it.  I'm sure it does improve groups just as this type of die improves groups for long range rifle, but I wouldn't promise you that it would make a significant improvement for a PCC given the fact that we're really only shooting 8-35yds for the most part.  I don't shoot for groups, but my 5.5" ULW barreled PCC will consistently hit the bolt head on a plate at 20 yards.  Probably the best part about it is how sideways a bullet can get dropped on top of the case and it will straighten it out like magic and seat it.  

[IDescribe]

MIcro-adj dies, whether they be seating or crimping, do nothing for precision.  They are to lock the die hard and fast to the press, then allow the person to switch from one measurement to the next without unlocking the whole die.  If you load .355 jacketed to a crimp of .376 and your favorite coated lead bullet to .378, a micro-adj taper crimp die would let you easily, quickly, and repeatably swap back and forth from one to another.  It does not to improve crimp or improve your ability to set it.  It just makes it less a pain in the but to swap between.

Same for a seating die.  It allows you to record the OAL setting for a limitless number of bullets, then dial right to that setting when you switch bullets, quickly, easily, and perfectly.  But it doesn't seat the bullet any straighter

Personally, I wouldn't be without one for my seating die.  I play with too many different bullets. 

But for a taper crimp die?  Just put a mark on the tool head next to the die, then adjust crimp to .376, .377, .378, and .379, and at each spot, mark the die in line with the mark on the toolhead, and dial it to those points based on what crimp you want.  

[jkrispies]

2 hours ago, IDescribe said:

MIcro-adj dies, whether they be seating or crimping, do nothing for precision.  

If all you are talking about is the micrometer adjustment feature, then yes.  However, the Redding and Forster competition dies (which have happen to have micrometers) possesss sliding sleeves that do a better job of consistently aligning the bullet in the case.  That’s where the increased accuracy is achieved by these particular dies.  So, yes, they are called micrometer dies, but that’s a secondary feature to me.  Again, though, when loading a rifle to shoot for distance, I’m sure the advantage could be readily measurable by someone willing to do the comparison... but that person won’t be me, LOL.   With a PCC, I’m guessing the accuracy advantage would be less palpable simply by the nature of the shooting style.   

Edited November 17, 2018 by jkrispies

[IDescribe]

48 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

If all you are talking about is the micrometer adjustment feature, then yes.  However, the Redding and Forster competition dies (which have happen to have micrometers) possesss sliding sleeves that do a better job of consistently aligning the bullet in the case.    

So does the Redding Pro Series without the micrometer.  It's the same die, just no micrometer.  The Redding Pro Series Competition seater with the micrometer doesn't do any better of a job seating the die than the Redding Pro without the micrometer.  But I'm not sure it matters because the OP didn't ask about the Redding micrometer seating die. 

The OP was asking about a Redding micrometer taper crimp die to begin with, seeming to be asking if it would allow him to adjust crimp better or in a way that would improve accuracy.  The only reason I mentioned the Micro-adj seating die, myself, is to discuss how the feature was useful for the seating die, but not so much for the taper crimp die.
 

[IDescribe]

OP, while your question is about the micro-adj taper crimp die improving 50 yards accuracy, and that's a big no there, there are some other basic things for 50 yard accuracy you can work with.

First, you want to stay out of the range of about 1100 - 1150 feet/sec, where there is a bow wave of compressed air breaking up around the bullet and pushing it around unevenly.  I am sure you have seen photos or videos of fighter jets decelerating through the sound barrier and passing through what looks like a disk of water vapor?  That's what I'm talking about.   Your best option for precision shooting is to stay below 1100 OR above 1150 all the way to your target.  If you start below 1100, no worries, and this is why just about every line of match grade .22LR is 1100 feet/sec or slower at the muzzle.   The other option is to start fast enough at the muzzle that bullet doesn't decelerate to 1150 before hitting the target.  This is what most of your handloading 50 yard bullseye shooters are doing with 9mm at the 50 yard line.  So...

At 50 yards...

 

• You want to load 115gr JHP to somewhere between 1200 and 1250 feet/sec to make sure it's over 1150 all the way to the target.  
• Power Pistol may be the most accurate powder that can safely drive a 115gr JHP that fast, but others like AA7 and N340/N350 are also good.
• Best bullets would be 115gr  JHP -- Sierra Sportsmaster, Hornady HAP, or ZERO.  Sportsmasters are expensive and not demonstrably better than HAPs in any universal way.  HAPs are top notch and can be had close to 10 cents per bullet if you buy 5,000 at a time.  HAPs are also a little oversized, so if your pistol shoots oversized bullets better, HAP is def your best option.   ZERO can be had for 10 cents per bullet at 2,000 or more.  A bit cheaper and still fantastic are Precision Delta that can be had for 8.5 cents per bullet at 2,000 or more.
• Do NOT case trim.
• Longer cases are better than shorter cases.
• Cases of the same (or at least closer in) length are better than cases that span several thousandths of an inch.  You might find 9mm cases anywhere between .754 and .740.  You don't want to load some cases at .754 and some at .744 for precision pistol at 50 yards.
• Get a Redding Pro Series seating die, with or without the competition micrometer, OR the Hornady Custom New Dimension seater as they both contain alignment sleeves.
   

[chevrofreak]

23 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

• Get a Redding Pro Series seating die, with or without the competition micrometer, OR the Hornady Custom New Dimension seater as they both contain alignment sleeves.
   

I use the Hornady and I love it. 

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

The OP was asking about a Redding micrometer taper crimp die to begin with, seeming to be asking if it would allow him to adjust crimp better or in a way that would improve accuracy.  The only reason I mentioned the Micro-adj seating die, myself, is to discuss how the feature was useful for the seating die, but not so much for the taper crimp die.
 

Good point.  I assumed that this was referring to the competition seater die that probably had an additional taper function but I just  looked on Brownells and it looks like this die the OP is asking about is a die specifically for tapering and not the seater die I was referring to.  My mistake.  That’s what I get for answering posts before I’ve had my morning coffee, haha.  I definitely would not spend my money on a micrometer taper die.  

 

Good info provided on loading for the OP as well.  I use Zero JGP 115gr and swear by them.  

[jlow]

Yes, IDescribe is correct, we are talking about a taper crimp die not a seater.  Yes, one reason for the micro-adjust is to be able to make changes easily, but ease of adjustment is not the point here.  The question is improvement in precision of the rounds at target and at 50 yards.

I am using Delta Precision 147 gr FMJ and so they are sub sonic so no problem dealing with transition to sub-sonic.  My understanding is adjusting crimp allows you to adjust the timing of the release of the bullet from the case, this I presume adjust “barrel time” i.e. the time the bullet exits the crown of the barrel which allows you to exit at the time when barrel harmonics are ideal.  These last bit is from precision rifle reloading so I apologize if I am getting into technical outside of what most pistol shooters deal with.

Mostly I think only bulleye shooters deal with the precision that I am looking for.

Edited November 17, 2018 by jlow

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, jlow said:

Mostly I think only bulleye shooters deal with the precision that I am looking for.

Yes, this.  

 

The problem with getting anything out of a micrometer taper crimp is that all your cases would need to be trimmed to the exact same length.  That’s fine when you’re loading 20 rounds of precision rifle but not when a single USPSA loading session will entail loading hundreds if not thousands of 9mm.   

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, jlow said:

The question is improvement in precision of the rounds at target and at 50 yards.

That die will offer you nothing in that regard.

 

 

1 hour ago, jlow said:

I am using Delta Precision 147 gr FMJ and so they are sub sonic so no problem dealing with transition to sub-sonic. 

Serious bullseye shooters do not use 147gr bullets at the 50 yard line.  

Are you talking about Bullseye shooting, or 9mm  minor action shooting?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, jlow said:

My understanding is adjusting crimp allows you to adjust the timing of the release of the bullet from the case, this I presume adjust “barrel time” i.e. the time the bullet exits the crown of the barrel which allows you to exit at the time when barrel harmonics are ideal.

Barrel whip is negligible in a short pistol barrel. 

 

But more importantly, adjusting taper crimp does not adjust the timing of release of the bullet from the case because taper crimping doesn't hold the bullet in the case at all. 

 

All a taper crimp does is remove the flare from the case that you added to aid in seating.  Proper taper crimp does nothing to secure the bullet, and over-crimping can damage the bullet surface, which is not what you want.  Plus the over-crimping that many do with the intention of more securely holding the bullet in place has the opposite effect.  When you bend the case mouth inward, the case walls below the mouth try to bow outward in response.  It would never be enough to see, but it is enough to reduce neck tension, which IS what holds the bullet in place.

Your crimp should be enough to bring the flare flush to the bullet shank, no more, no less (actually, a thousandth less is okay).     But when you see someone talk about getting a really good crimp on a straight-wall pistol case, they're doing it wrong.


 

[IDescribe]

6 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

 

The problem with getting anything out of a micrometer taper crimp is that all your cases would need to be trimmed to the exact same length.  That’s fine when you’re loading 20 rounds of precision rifle but not when a single USPSA loading session will entail loading hundreds if not thousands of 9mm.   

Exactly, AND it's even more than just the volume. 

You don't want to trim 9mm cases, period.  9mm cases, through the firing and resizing process, don't get longer like bottleneck rifle cartridges -- they shrink.  And you're going to get better precision with longer cases.  You do not want to make them shorter voluntarily.

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, jlow said:

Mostly I think only bulleye shooters deal with the precision that I am looking for.

I thought that when I read it, and the points I gave you are what bullseye shooters will give you.

NOW, however, I am wondering if you are shooting bullseye at all.  I am wondering if you simply want best 50 yard accuracy for whatever you are doing at closer ranges.

For whatever application you want to use the pistol for, the ideal choices change.  I would never recommend 115gr JHP and Power Pistol for 9mm minor action shooting, for example. 

Can you tell us what type of shooting you're doing?   Plinking?  Target?  Defense practice?  Action shooting 9mm minor?  Bullseye? 

 

What type of shooting? It matters.

 

[Steve RA]

18 hours ago, jlow said:

Looking to improve precision for PCC.

 

2nd sentence in original post.

[MemphisMechanic]

He wants a PCC that shoots smaller groups than most do at 50+ yards.

 

Which means you money will be best spent on a high quality JHP like a Zero or Montana Gold, perhaps a chnage of barrel, and a lot of load development. And not on a specific magical crimp die.

[jlow]

For good precision, it is always a combination of a number of things and not one thing.  Obviously the shooters skills, quality of the barrel/rifle and components, and of course the load.  Being a precision rifle shooter, I am completely aware of these and so although I appreciate the reminder, I am here to look for information on the reloading process not the rest.

[IDescribe]

3 hours ago, Steve RA said:

 

2nd sentence in original post.

And... I"m a dope.     It was the next line that mentioned "precision pistol reloading" that stuck with me.



 

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, jlow said:

For good precision, it is always a combination of a number of things and not one thing.  

 

jlow, I will offer this for thought, which complements what Memphis Mechanic said about wanting groups that most PCC won't do at 50+ yards:

The mechanical precision of a tuned bullseye pistol will exceed the the mechanical precision of a duty PCC.  The mechanical precision of a tuned precision rifle will exceed both.  The mechanical precision of an off the shelf PCC is going to be similar to that of an off the shelf duty pistol, which is to say -- not great at 50 yards.  I do not own a PCC, but given that they are essentially semi-auto submachine-guns and meant for short range if not outright close quarters, I would not expect high precision.  PCC have a definite, serious advantage in sight radius, but I suspect not anything consequential in terms of precision.

RELOADING
Now that I am conscious we are talking about PCC, I would definitely question the 147gr bullets.  I believe 147gr bullets in 9mm were intended for subguns, but if you are after long range accuracy, they are unlikely your best option, and for the "soft felt recoil" that 9mm pistol shooters choose 147gr for, the weight of a PCC negates that supposed benefit anyway.  So right off the bat, I don't think you are doing yourself any favors with 147gr.  I'd go to 115gr grain or 124/125gr for sure.  I would also say to go to something like BE-86 for 124/125gr and Power Pistol for 115gr.

One thing I would do immediately in your shoes is go to ZERO's sales company -- Roze Distribution -- and buy some 124gr 9mm (.355) and 125gr 38 Super (.356) FMJ-RN and test accuracy for which size bullets your PCC prefers.  Plenty of 9mm barrels do better with .356 jacketed bullets over the standard sizing of .355.  From there, you can figure out what sizing to go with, and start load development.  Bullet to barrel fit is a major factor in precision that is far too seldom considered.  And variation in bore diameter tends to be greater in duty weapons than precision rifles. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by IDescribe

[jkrispies]

Also, may I ask what barrel you're using?  I really like my 5.5" TACCOM ULW, but I'd run a totally different load if I was using something like their new 13.5" tension barrel with a comp.  That could help to figure out the type of a load to steer you towards in terms of bullet weight and powder choice.  Generally speaking, though--and assuming you're not shooting it with a suppressor--I think a lighter bullet will treat you well.  With a 5.5" barrel I'd keep it subsonic, but with a 13.5" barrel I'd snap the reins to get the velocity up and maybe try to generate a little gas to work the comp.

[jlow]

It's a SIG MPX and I have both a 4.5" and an 8" barrel, so it is actually a sub gun, just semi-auto.  The advantage of the 147 is of course no sonic crack as I also intent to also use a can.

FWIW, the Precision Delta 147 reloads I currently shoot (and I am trying to optimize here) I can hit a reduced size USPSA target 75 yards away shooting off hand with an off the shelf factory tactical handgun with a 5.25" barrel no problem.

 

I am of course not shooting bulleye with this gun but I would like to shoot this gun in a 2-gun match (for practice) where there are frequently targets out to 100 yards.  Now I can hit those easily with an AR shooting cheap Russian ammo, but I would just like to reduce the MPX 4" groups to 2" groups.  FWIW, I have shot this gun in those 2-gun matches before and come in the middle of the pack against ARs, but it would be nice to do better (like when I shoot an AR) and be a bit more accurate.  Not trying to shoot 1/2 MOA groups as I have plenty of centerfire rifles that can do that.

[IDescribe]

(1) I'm a little jealous of that Sig.   

(2) If I read that correctly, you're trying to come up with a single 2-gun load you can use in a pistol to 25/35 yards and in a PCC out to 100.  Those are in my head different applications with different needs, but if you are set on that....

Develop a load for 100 yards for the PCC.  It might not be optimal for your pistol, but it's a far better option than the other way around. 

You should be looking at 124/125gr bullets, loaded somewhere around 1070-1090 in the Sig MPX, tuning for accuracy at 100 yards.  And I would think Ramshot Silhouette a good option for powder.

You like Precision Delta, who also has 124gr bullets sized .355 for 9mm and .356 for 38 Super.  I would try both to see which the PCC prefers.  

And sort cases by headstamp and by length, at least for load development.   You can go to mixed brass after your load is developed to see how much difference it makes.

 

[jkrispies]

How many rounds for PCC fired typically in the 2 gun, especially at distance?   If we’re not talking a ton, it might be worth it to keep a “special box” of rounds loaded with new brass and handload them like a rifle— uniform the flash holes, specifically weigh the charges rather than using a volume drop, hand weigh/exam the bullets for uniformity, etc.  You could literally only load them into the mags on stages with the really hard targets and use mass produced 9mm for everything else.  It would be possible to count them out into the magaxine as well, for instance if you know it’s ten shots close followed by 6 distance, the top ten tounds in mag are hosers and 11-16 are precision rounds.  Consider looking at Zero 125gr bullets (.356”) or maybe even Sierras, Hornady, Nosler etc, because they are actual FMJ rather than plated which I think will give you better performance and uniformity over plated brands.  Be sure to clean the gun before the hard target stages, and it might shrink the groups more than we realize.  I’d be interested in hearing test results.  (And slightly off topic but you’ll obviously gain a lot with a magnified optic vs a dot.  For what you’re talking about a Triji 1-4x Accupoint won’t add much weight while giving you good accuracy.)

Edited November 18, 2018 by jkrispies

[jlow]

Looks guys, I appreciate the input, but I am not here looking for advice on shooting, a new load, new bullet, new powder. 

I am just looking for feedback from people who have used this taper crimp die - how you optimize it and how well it works.

 

[IDescribe]

Gotcha.  Okay, pretty sure you already had your answer much earlier then.

The micro-adjustable taper crimp die does not allow you to make micro-adjustments.  It allows you to make adjustments with a micrometer, but the adjustments are no finer or less fine than what you get out of a regular taper crimp die.  The micrometer merely allows you to return to an adjustment you have already recorded so long as the die body was not itself moved.   

This will do nothing to allow you to apply a better crimp.  It does nothing for accuracy that a regular crimp die doesn't.