357 Loads For New Revolver

[Northern Xtreme]

Hello, I just got my 4" 686 in 357 magnum back from Clark where they cut the cylinder for moon clips.

I am planning to shoot it in the IDPA Enhanced service revolver class and maybe some IPSC for fun.

Does anyone have a good load that they are using in a similar set up?

I just ordered 1000 of the Rainier 158 plated round nose bullets to try because they look like they would reload quickly, Hopefully they will stand up to magnum loads alright.

I've never had great luck with the accuracy of a round nose bullet but with the longer bearing surface of a 158 it might be Ok. The distances dont require Bianchi type accuracy anyways.

I looked at the Montana gold FMJ bullets and they looked good except the nose looked a little flat which might not reload as smooth, but they would probably shoot a little better and magnum loads shouldnt bother them.

I am also interested in powder suggestions, obviously I will be using Federal primers.

While I am at it I am also looking for an IDPA legal Kydex revolver holster if anyone knows who makes one?

Thanks,

Paul

[revchuck]

Paul - I classified in ESR using my 681 and HKS speedloaders...just because...

The load I used was a 158 grain RNL over 6.8 grains of new Unique, sparked by Federal 200s in mixed .357 brass. This goes 1120+ fps from my gun; this is the "fastest" four inch revolver I have, about 30-50 fps faster than my others. Using this load with plated bullets would probably bring it down to the just-barely-Major level.

Another shooter, whose name escapes me right now (just finished my first cup of coffee!), uses the same powder and charge in .38 Special brass with plated bullets; don't know what OAL he uses. If you decide to go this route, take the necessary precautions to make sure it doesn't make it into your .38s!

FWIW, Alliant's data shows Bullseye as being capable of making Major in .357 Magnum.

[Bill Sahlberg]

If you want faster reloading times you need a shorter overall round :-) I use a .38 Colt Short case (Starline Brass) with a 130 gr Montana Gold bullet with 4.5 gr of Universal Clays a Federal 100 primer and 1.100" OAL This is 1125 fps and easily makes IPSC minor, is super clean burning, and very accurate. Now for PPC accuracy and loading I reverse the 130 gr (yes, it is put in backwards with round nose facing the powder) and put 3.2 gr of Bullseye with a crimp at the top of a .38 Special case (not the shorty) This is just as accurate as my old 148 gr HBWC that we shoot at the Police Academy but they are very clean and leave no lead on the face of the cylinder or bore. I may be crazy, my wife says so, or I think she says something like that, but I have used these recipes for 10 years and have the results to prove they work :-)

Bill Sahlberg

IPSC / ICORE / IDPA / PPC

"revos rule"

[10mmdave]

What is the power factor your looking for ??

(never shot IDPA)

[Northern Xtreme]

I want to make Major power factor which is 165.

I have heard of using the shorter cases but if I shoot minor it wont be with moon clips anyways because IDPA ESR class requires major and I dont think I want to shoot USPSA IPSC in minor.

I can use lead round nose bullets for my 38 specials which will reload plenty fast enough and they dont cause leading problems.

I have plenty of accurate 38 special loads from my Bianchi and Bullseye days.

What I am looking for is a good major load that I can use in both IPSC and IDPA with my moon clips.

It looks like the plated bullets may be the best choice so far, I was hoping maybe someone knew of a jacketed bullet with a nose that would lend itself well to quick loading.

Thanks for the ideas, keep them coming.

Paul

[10mmdave]

NX.....have you thought about .356 sized 38 super bullets ???

I've been doing some testing recently and I'm had good results with Zero's

150 grn FMJ. (but the do have exposed base)

Very pointy bullet so great for speed loads, heavy to get up to 165 PF.

If your loading with Dillon dies your crimper should be fine, beware of too

much roll crimping.

OH my testing has been with 4 revo's, 2 custom barreled ones and 2

stk S&W barrels, I'm talking 3-4 inch groups at 50 yrds but this ain't Bianchi Cup.

[Bones]

I'm probably the shooter revchuck reffered to.

I use 38 Special cases,Berrys CPRN DS bullets and Fed SPM primers and get 1150-1200 fps out of my 4" 586. I've used ctg oals ranging from 1.540 - 1.590" (same length as a 357). I didn't have a problem with Fed 100 primers, but decided it wasn't worth the risk since there was difference in price and my gun will ignite the magnums without fail. I think you'll find Phil Sharpe and Elmer Keith tread the same ground many years ago.

I've settled on the shorter ctg aol so I can use the same set-up for my SSR loads (4.4 gr TiteGroup to get 840 fps out of the same gun) by simply changing powder measures.

Based on chronographing/shooting about 100 rd of each in various configurations, there is no statistical difference in velocity or percieved/felt recoil when comparing the (2) cases, so I went with the 38. In fact the 38 cases yielded more consistent velocities.

10K through the gun - no problem.

The bullet profile and seating depths are very important. Berrys RN profile is very long compared to others (Rainier, MG, West Coast, etc.) so you can use the same length and get the same performance as the same charge in a 357 case. The shorter bullets in 38 cases do not yield enough crimp purchase to work consistently.

I've petitioned Berrys to make a 180 gr RN - you might want to consider doing that as well.

38s are cheaper, easier to find, yield faster reloads and, in my opinion, safer to produce.

Getting a 38 case mixed into a 357 loading session is easier to do and much more dangerous (i.e. a squib load - the powder charge will not be droppped in a progressive press) than getting a 357 case mixed into a 38 reloading session (very obvious and detected at the press).

Buy the Berry's in bulk (>20K) and you can get them for about $50/1000 delivered to your door.

In my opinion, the best holster for your 686 is the Safariland 560 series:

http://www.holsters.com/concealment/holsters/model561.asp

Good Luck in ESR,

Craig

[Northern Xtreme]

Craig,

What powder are you using for the 38 Special Magnums?

Dave,

I have never tried shooting 9mm bullets in one of my revolvers, I wonder if the bullets will stay put while shooting off magnums with the absense of a crimping groove.

Thanks for the ideas.

[10mmdave]

Craig,

      What powder are you using for the 38 Special Magnums?

Dave,

      I have never tried shooting 9mm bullets in one of my revolvers, I wonder if the bullets will stay put while shooting off magnums with the absense of a crimping groove.

Thanks for the ideas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NX, I'm shooting 38 super/.356 dia. bullets, not 9mm bullets (.3555).

I don't doubt they'd work but I just don't have any experiance with them in S&W

627 38spcl/357's

Using the larger (150 grn) .356 bullets you should have plenty of bearing surface

in the case for "sticktion" ( I did ) and using my Dillon crimp die worked fine.

NOW ! ! ! when using the lighter .356 bullets I needed to size the cases a bit more

or I could push the bullet into the case. I bought an undersize die from EGW (Lee)

and now I use that for all my 38 loads.

(side note----emailed Lee about sizing 38 spcl brass more and they emailed back

that a 380 ACP die should do the trick)

The lighter Zero .356 bullets have a dished out base and I believe that helps in

sealing the barrel.

And ya know I should add that all this work with .356 bullets has been for

120-130 pf loads, so when trying to push these bullets up to 165-170 pf use your

best judgement.

Also, I've made a ton of "magnum" loads using 38 spcl cases, 230 grn lead logs

doing 205-215 power factor, 38 spcl brass will hold up fine for your 170 pf loads

and with the shorter case you'll get a slightly cleaner burn.

So, hope that helps, any other questions just add a post and I'll get to it as soon

as I can.

ps. The Serria 170 JRN Tournement Master bullet is a sweet speed loading bullet

profile, expensive but maybe use it for match's

[Bones]

Sorry Paul - In was following on revchuck's post - I'm using Unique.

Here's the complete summary:

38 Special case

Federal Magnum SP primers

6.8 gr Unique

158 gr Berry's CPRN

1.540" ctg oal

1150 fps - 4" 586 or 28 (1450 fps - 18.5" Marlin 1894 - careful, they're RN)

My experience is that "heavier-slower bullet" route produces an easier to shoot round that the "lighter-faster" combinations.

I'm not sure what advantage using undersized diameter bullets would yield and have never needed to find out. I know my Ruger Blackhawk shoots markedly worse w/ 9mm loads than 38/357 loads.

I have also had success making 165000 PF out of a 4" revolver using Hornady XTP 180 gr with Unique, H110 (very dirty), N110 (very clean) and AA #9 in 357 cases that were eaiser to shoot than the 158 gr CPs, but were cost prohibitive for me to shoot in volume. A 180 gr (or even better) 200 gr CP RN would be a very nice nice thing.

I don't like the idea of shooting lead at any speed, much less fast ones.

The Unique is a little flashy so keep your wits about you on flashlight stages.

You can make 165000 PF with 125 gr bullets in a 4" revolver but they are not a pleasant round to shoot in volume. I'm guessing 110 gr must be even worse if it can be done at all.

Where in ME do you shoot? I frequent the Millinocket-Houlton corridor every now and then and have a good friend in Waterville (China actually). I've been adopted by locals but I have to leave my car behind the barn (MA plates).

Good Luck (try SSR - you'll sleep better at night),

Craig

[10mmdave]

I'm not sure what advantage using undersized diameter bullets would yield and have never needed to find out. I know my Ruger Blackhawk shoots markedly worse w/ 9mm loads than 38/357 loads.

Craig

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me the biggest advantage was having a fast speed loading bullet profile.

With all the games revo's can play in we need pointy bullets like the 9mm variety

(at least in my own humble opinion)

Luckly my 627 8 shots like the .356 sized bullets, my 686's don't but then again

of the 3 I own only 1 of them will accept the "match grade" range rod all the way

to the cylinder believe it or not the gage stops just short of the frame.

[Walt S]

If you want faster reloading times you need a shorter overall round :-) I use a .38 Colt Short case (Starline Brass) with a 130 gr Montana Gold bullet with 4.5 gr of Universal Clays a Federal 100 primer and 1.100" OAL This is 1125 fps and easily makes IPSC minor, is super clean burning, and very accurate. Now for PPC accuracy and loading I reverse the 130 gr (yes, it is put in backwards with round nose facing the powder) and put 3.2 gr of Bullseye with a crimp at the top of a .38 Special case (not the shorty) This is just as accurate as my old 148 gr HBWC that we shoot at the Police Academy but they are very clean and leave no lead on the face of the cylinder or bore. I may be crazy, my wife says so, or I think she says something like that, but I have used these recipes for 10 years and have the results to prove they work :-)

Bill Sahlberg

IPSC / ICORE / IDPA / PPC

"revos rule"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[8ring]

Round nose bullets feed best in the .357 although round nose flat point feed well, too. Chamfering the charge holes a bit will also help.

.38 special cases are about .1" shorter than .357 and may load a fraction of a second faster. I think you will save more time by simply practicing your reloads with dummy rounds.

Consider shooting lead bullets; they shoot softer than plated or jacketed and at 165-170 PF, you should little if any leading if the chamber mouths are not undersized. Enlarging the mouths to .3585" on my GP-100 improved accuracy and virtually eliminated leading.

For 158gr lead, use about 5.5gr Titegroup or 5.9 - 6.0 gr. Universal with a magnum primer for about 168-172 PF through a 6" barrel.

N-340 is a nice clean powder but its minimum load was in the 175+ PF range in my Ruger. I got a squib load when I went .5gr under the minimum N-340 load.

180gr. may be the ideal weight for lead bullets but it's hard to find RN or RNFP bullets at that weight; most are truncated cone design that do not load as quickly.

Good luck with your .357.

Chris

[hopalong]

If you decide to chamfer your clyinder on the .357, remember that rimmed brass is unsupported back there and only knock off the sharp edge of the cylinder.

It will help on speed load reloads as anything is better than the sharp edge.

Hopalong

[Walt S]

Hello, I just got my 4" 686 in 357 magnum back from Clark where they cut the cylinder for moon clips.

I am planning to shoot it in the IDPA Enhanced service revolver class and maybe some IPSC for fun.

Does anyone have a good load that they are using in a similar set up?

I just ordered 1000 of the Rainier 158 plated round nose bullets to try because they look like they would reload quickly, Hopefully they will stand up to magnum loads alright.

I've never had great luck with the accuracy of a round nose bullet but with the longer bearing surface of a 158 it might be Ok. The distances dont require Bianchi type accuracy anyways.

I looked at the Montana gold FMJ bullets and they looked good except the nose looked a little flat which might not reload as smooth, but they would probably shoot a little better and magnum loads shouldnt bother them.

I am also interested in powder suggestions, obviously I will be using Federal primers.

While I am at it I am also looking for an IDPA legal Kydex revolver holster if anyone knows who makes one?

Thanks,

    Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Walt S]

Paul, I shoot a S&W 620 and plan on trying HODGDON recomended load that will give me MAJOR.. 158gr bullet with 13.5 grs of H110 for 1396 fps. I'm also going to try the same load in my 38 brass, same gun. Have some questions out on that tactic. If I have good or bad experiences I'll forward them.

[revchuck]

Walt - Try a powder in the ballpark of Unique and Universal Clays. You should be able to make Major and your loads will be much cleaner burning. I use Unique with lead bullets and Hodgdon's Longshot with jacketed. Also, the lower the powder charge, the less the recoil at a given velocity.

[Northern Xtreme]

Thanks for the information.

Walt I am looking for a load that just makes Major for competition, I alreay have some nice full power Magnum loads that I use in .357.

Hopalong, Clark did a real nice job chamfering the cylinder. I had them cut it for moon clips and polish the charge holes also.

Dave, I always shot .355 bullets in my 38 super auto, I never thought about the .356 bullets, interesting point, but my gun is a 686 and it sounds like you found that they do not like that bullet.

Craig, I run the action pistol program, which is USPSA at this time at Capital City R&P in Augusta, Maine.

I just got some 170 grain Truncated cone cast bulelts to try, hopefully they will load fast enough. I also got some Sierra Tournament Master FMJ's that look like they will be perfect but they are expensive.

It would seem from many of your posts that my Titegroup powder may not be the best to use for the 170 power factor range. Perhaps I should use Unique.

I have never tried loading the 38 special case to major levels, I guess it wouldnt be to bad to push a 170 grain bullet at 1000 fps out of one. Do you guys really feel a magnum primer is necessary? Obviously it has to be a federal primer.

Thanks again, keep the ideas coming.

Paul

[Walt S]

If you want faster reloading times you need a shorter overall round :-) I use a .38 Colt Short case (Starline Brass) with a 130 gr Montana Gold bullet with 4.5 gr of Universal Clays a Federal 100 primer and 1.100" OAL This is 1125 fps and easily makes IPSC minor, is super clean burning, and very accurate. Now for PPC accuracy and loading I reverse the 130 gr (yes, it is put in backwards with round nose facing the powder) and put 3.2 gr of Bullseye with a crimp at the top of a .38 Special case (not the shorty) This is just as accurate as my old 148 gr HBWC that we shoot at the Police Academy but they are very clean and leave no lead on the face of the cylinder or bore. I may be crazy, my wife says so, or I think she says something like that, but I have used these recipes for 10 years and have the results to prove they work :-)

Bill Sahlberg

IPSC / ICORE / IDPA / PPC

"revos rule"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BILL, when you crimp your cases do you crimp with the base of the bullet just outside the case as in the left side of my picture, -or- do you crimp with the base of the bullet flush with the top of the case as on the right side of the picture. Thanks, Walt