Classifiers?

[jvinez]

Whats everyones thoughts on having a classification system for rifle and one for shotgun?    

Yes?  No?  Pros?  Cons?  Whatever.

If yall think its a dumb idea please feel free to let me know that too.

Jason

[Chriss Grube]

I think the whole classifier system needs revamped. If your a GM in open then your a GM in everything else. Same goes for all the other classes. Do away with the one class lower stuff. There isn't that much difference from one gun to another. It aint the gun it is all the stuff in between that seperates the classes. We need more emphasis on big match performance as compared to the classifiers.

[kellyn]

Using pistol classification does not really reflect 3 gunning skill.  Look at Todd Salmon and Bennie Cooley, they're both Masters but if anyone is a 3 gun grand master, it would be those two.  Likewise, a lot of GMs fall short in 3 gunning.

As 3 gunning gets bigger, I'll bet we see a move in this direction.

[Chriss Grube]

Kelly,

How do you score a 3 gun match if the guy is a GM in rifle, M in pistol, and maybe only a B in shotgun. I think it will be a mess for the poor guy trying to score it. I'm just glad to see 3 gun making progress. The problem with a whole seperate classifier system is going to be finding a club the is going to run all the different classifiers. The only answer would be a standardized course similar to the IDPA course.

[kellyn]

I'm not too big into the classification system anyway so I don't really care.  I compete for the overall, not 1st Master.  If there is a classification system, it probably ought to be a 3 gun classification for all 3 guns and not a seperate and distinct classification for each type of weapon for example somebody would be an "A" in Open 3 Gun.  Of course this would be very difficult to organize such a system.  If I were king for a day, there would be classifications just like SOF/Mystery Mountain/North Carolina Tactical: All against All!

[jvinez]

thanks for the replies guys,  ive been off work due to injury and basically been bored beyond belief.  I guess i didnt think about it much before i posted question,  now i can see most of the problems with it that you have pointed out.  but anyhow have a good evening

[scottmilk9]

And KellyN usually comes out number one overall  LOL  , Just like Tucson.

I like how we did it at MGM 3 gun,  percentages that way no one sand bags.

[ErikW]

No classifications, heads up overall only. There's too much division in this sport as it is. Stop treating 3 gun as 3 or 4 matches (per division!) anyway, and just go by the aggregate.

[tim3gun]

I agree, the classification system breeds sandbaggers.

just do a heads up overall (Lewis System)

[kurtm]

Tim3gun:

Absolutly no Qualifiers!! There would be no sandbagging on the upper end, however the LEWI(S system of scoring blows! Anyone finishing in the top ten at a big match should get at least thier entry fee back, if not more. One matych I shot was a fairly big prize match, I finished 5th and ended up with a small mag lite flash light as a prize. Cut off for rifles as a prize was 4th place. The the 12th place guy or first master class shoter won a AR-10T. Wow what incentive to shot well. Next time I might sandbag a little and finih 10th and get something great!!  As I said LEWIS blows           KURT

[KyleL]

KurtM,

At the last NC Tactical 3 Gun Championships we gave away 24 guns. The top 6 shooters received blasters, the remaining number of competitors were split into 3 equal groups. The top 6 in each group received guns as well. So 1-12, 51-56, and 96-101... Everyone seemed pretty happy with the outcome. This is the Lewis system slightly modified to meet our needs. Of the top 12 shooters I am the only shooter to have shot all of the NC Tactical three guns. Of the top 20 shooters only 3 shooters have shot all of the matches. My point here is that the shooters from 65% on down are the shooters who come back every year. They know it is a crap shoot  whether or not they will win a gun, they want a good match, with great RO's and great memorable stages... We deliver that, and to top it off they may get lucky, yes lucky, and win a blaster. If people get upset because they finish 14th and don't win a pistol, fine.. as long as they are upset for the  right reasons. If you are mad because you wish you would have performed better and finished higher in the guns, Cool. If you are upset because the 101st shooter received a pistol and you didn't..... Sorry, raise your goals. And remember 101 is happier with a gun than the top shooter, because he has probably never won one. Also remember what the sponsors want....... We have great sponsors every year because of the way we conduct business... Lewis has its place. Hope you will be able to shoot the match one day. Can't promise you a gun, but I will bet that you enjoy the match and learn something about yourself or your gear.

KyleL

[kurtm]

Kyle:

First off , I hope that you have shot all of them, as you are the one who puts it on! Secondly I don't recall mentioning your match in the context of this forum. Have you ever had an AR10T as a prize?? I certainly wouldn't know.

With that in mind  I shall now reply to some of your points. Sponsorship of prizes wouldn't even be around unless the company donating a prize didn't think it would get some form of advertizing out of their donation / cut cost prize. Most companies probably wouldn't brag about their product being won by the 101st place guy. For instance GoodYear doesn't brag about the last place car that runs thier tires. When Todd Jerrett wins a cool prize, thats great advertizing for the company that makes that prize. When 101st never heard of befor wins that prize it usally is'nt even a footnote. This is the reality of advertizing. Is it fair and just? Probable not. but thats the way it usally is.

You are absolutly right that 101st would be much happier with a gun than 5th place would be assuming that 5th place placed like that all the time, but what if a guy, who usaly shoots in the mid 30s happened to have the match of his life that particuler time? Boy is he happy!! Now you have a guy who is going to bad mouth the match and possible the sport. ( This is not personal experience, or sour grapes, but I do know people who have had this happen.)

If excelence is not rewarded, then we start to kill the sport from the top down. I.E. since non of the big shooters shoot a particular match it must not be worth going to. When the big name shooters stop going, soon the sponsership will too. ( although I think if you put national or world  championship in there somewhere it might float longer.)

A few points to ponder. For alot of top shooters to travel to the many matches, costs alot of money. If there is not at least a fair chance, ( and I mean with a propper aplication of skill, not the free lunch syndrome)  of winning some of these costs back, it is hard to justify going all the time. I dought if many of the 65% you mention travel very far to go to your match. If there is not a strong prize structure many people don't even bother to attend or will go to see the show once, and then never go again.

Perhaps  trophies or placks could be awarded in the LEWIS way(as a plack or trophy has yet helped off set the costs incured in traveling to a major match), and the prize table run in order of finish ( ala SMM3G). I know 101st would be very happy with a trophy for first D class! and seeing tyhe prizes might incite him/her to do even beter next time, but darn that trophy looks nice!!!

I am absolutly sure I would love your match, and I wouldn't want you to promise me a gun. I like to earn the stuff I get with the skill I have aquiered to date. This is the second time you have said COME TO MY MATCH. From the sound of your  reply to my blanket "LEWIS BLOWS" I am suprized the invitation would still be extended. To be quite honest, the reason I go to the matches I go to, is because there is a chance I can make back alot of the expenses I incure to go to them.  N.C. is a long way from here, but who knows. As for learning about me or my gear I can only say that experience is the ability to recognize that mistake your making again!!!                  KURT

[actionshooter]

Kurt, I had to respond to your post on a couple of points. I have never seen any company who donanted a prize bragg about who won it. They will bragg if the competitior USED thier product to win. Thats how advertising is used. If a GM wins a Ruger 10/22 no one will remeber who won it,hopefully everyone remembers WHO donanted it.

 I also diagree about the 65% who don't travel far to compete, They spend as much as everyone else (to travel) and have no expectations of winning anything. Don't forget who is the backbone of the sport.

I don't totally agree with any aspect of the prize table/no prize table argument,but if there is a match using the lewis system it might be the only chance the lower guys get at a gun.

[kellyn]

Don't hurt me Kyle but I largely agree with Kurt.  You make good points about the pros to the Lewis system but I feel that the cons far outweigh the benefits.  The biggest benefit is that the less competitive shooters get to share the wealth.  Watching the one shooter at NC nearly break down over winning a pistol was really special. He said he had never won anything like it and he was a very happy guy.  In spite of this, I still feel that heads up is the only way to really run a prize table, if we are to consider ourselves a truly athletic endeavor.  This is assuming that we are to have prize tables at all.  

I hear a lot of shooters complain that Rob Leatham (or insert Bennie Cooley/Voigt/Miculek etc) always win and he always wins the best prize.  Well if you (the rhetorical you) don't like it then beat him!  This is supposed to be a competitive sport not a big social event.  This is not to say that matches can't be social but in the end they should be about who won.  The person that won should recieve the highest accolades and rewards and so on down the line.

The people that win are the ones who usually put the most into the sport.  They shoot the most matches.  They purchase more equipment.  They buy more primers,bullets, powder.  They spend more time on the Dillon.  They take the time to dry fire.  They take the time to do drills and practice when its hot-cold-raining.  They stay up late at night practicing mag changes.  TGO wins because he has spent the time and money to do so, not becuase the gods have granted him some super special ability.  People like that are the ones who should be first at the prize table because they have earned it more than anyone else there, even if it's the same person everytime.  When I hear a  D class shooter whining about TGO's prize it's almost offensive when you look at all the efforts that Rob has put in.

The Lewis system threatens the underlying basis of a competitive sport because it rewards mediocrity.  You can win the same prize as the top dogs simply by showing up.  It's more of a lottery than a sport.

Now I like to win prizes (today I was shooting the JP upper I won at the 3 gun Natl) but I don't shoot for prizes. I shoot to shoot.  If I wanted that JP upper, I could have saved lots of time and money by simply buying it and not dryfiring, practicing and buying all the components and equipment that it took to win it.  I think that Lewis or worse lotteries a la IDPA lead us down the wrong path but I still want to shoot in Kyle's match next year!

[kurtm]

Actionshooter:

As I look back to the old issues of the few magazines that cover action shooting sports, I notice pictures of usally the over all winner and SOMETIMES down to 3rd place, almost always holding the prize they won. In the captions of these pictures it ALWAYS mentions the prize and company that rewarded it. Hum... perhaps advertizing?? Sometimes in the print of the article it mentions the winner of the other classes and what they won. Hum... perhaps advertizing.

You do have one point in that usally in advertizing print the company tells about the matches they support ,not who won the prize. A few exceptions are H&S Precision, Armalite, and D.P.M.S. ,as I look through past catalogs. Oh well enough of that. I believe Kelly nicely  covered why the 65% don't exactly SPEND as much as the top shooters. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong on this whole deal, I'm only stating my view point hence the name of this venue.....FORUM

P.S. I agree with Kelly on this deal             KURT

[xsrdx]

Kurt, Kyle, Kelly et al-

I thought I'd add my opinion as the voice of mediocrity, as I know it's been awhile since Kurt's finished out of the top 10 anywhere. He can't spell too good, but he can shoot (howdy Kurt :-)~~)

I try to shoot at least one national level 3 Gun a year, that's really all my schedule allows. I generally try to finish in the 50-60% range, as I've chosen to do other things besides practice 3 Gun every week. Doesn't mean I don't want to do well, but all I'm really looking for is my personal best, which I recognize is not going to be at the Voigt/Cooley/Miculek (Miller??) level unless I'm willing to put in the effort to get there.

I shot Kyle's match last May, and loved it. I ran my a** off, got my guns dirty, and generally had a great time. I didn't shoot as well as I'd have liked, but I didn't tank anything either.

I went because I wanted to shoot a national caliber match, with good RO's and a variety of challenges to test my skills. I got all that and more. I didn't go to win a gun, nor did I expect to. Still, I won some decent stuff, and Kyles prize table was better than the other tactical matches I've been to.

Bottom line is the best shooters put in the time, effort and money, and should win the best prizes. Lewis is fine for sports seeking "growth", but I'm not sure 3 Gun has enough appeal to grow much beyond it's present state, especially if we can't settle on equipment rules - but that's another story.

I totally respect Kyle's reasons for using the Lewis distribution, and I can't say enough good about the match, but I'd prefer a straight up walk through from the top down.

Much of the fun for someone like me in attending these things is watching the superstars in action- effectively denying those guys a shot at the top prize is harsh, especially if you give them to guys like me that show up to compete WITHOUT having practiced 20 hours every week for the previous 6 months.  You can't go to the Masters and chit chat with Tiger about which club he's using on the 16th hole - but I HAVE talked with Jerry Miculek at SOF about how to shoot a stage. THAT, to me, is what makes shooting sports great, and it's why I'm HAPPY they aren't for everyone.

I don't expect to win a gun unless I earn it, and if I do, it makes it that much more rewarding.

-Craig G

[kurtm]

Hey Craig!!

Long time no see. Blane also sayes hi!! As for the spelling, I need to go to the Derek Zoolander school for kids who don't spell so realy good! In my defence I must say I work in a world of abrv.s and four letter rock descripters, and... er.. but!! Well 7th grade was a long four years. Hope your having fun back east in the 5 sided bld. And thanks for the support. This is truly one of the few sports where anybody can talk to anybody.    KURT

[KyleL]

Kurt, Kelly, Craig, and all the fellas,

This is very interesting, this forum is great because you can actually learn something. 1. Kurt is a Zoolander fan, as me be, cause I don't talk good neither... Anyway, I am glad to hear the comments concerning Lewis. I still believe we will run our match in the future as it has been in the past. However we may slightly change the prize distro.. If I am unable to come up with a better way it may remain the same but I will definately try to come up with the right answer.

I hope to run a match out west here as well, keep checking our site for info.. ADIOS KyleL

[actionshooter]

I don't want to look like the guy just shaking his head in agreement to everyone but I think everyone has a point. There is room for all the different types scoring. I personally look to see how far I am from the top before I look to see where I am in class. If the lewis system is used w/ a prize table I really enjoy seeing a person who would not normally win something nice take something home.

I shoot to compete and how a match is scored or what the prize table hold (if there is even a prize table) has no bearing on if I am going to shoot that match or not.

Steve

[kurtm]

Actionshooter:

You should check out the posts on the Raton 3-gun match that Gunsmoke put on. If you shoot just to compeat, perhaps this is the match for you. The scoring is arbitrary and can be enhanced or hindered by style points awarded or taken away. All prizes are awarded by random draw. After all it doesn't matter how things are scored!!!                                              KURT

[actionshooter]

OK Kurt, Now you are hitting below the belt  

I do care how matches are scored, To a point. What I was trying to say was I wouldn't skip a match just because it scored with the lewis sysytem. I would skip the matches you listed. BUT people do shoot those matches and enjoy that type of match. AND there is room for every type of system of scoring even if you or I don't choose to attend that event!!

Steve

[kurtm]

Actionshooter:

I knew that deep down you did care about scoring, everybody does!!! Now I will try to bend this back to the original topic of our forum here.

With all the different types of scoring systems, how could anyone possibly do a classification system. If its Lewis then one could be classified a grand master one match and a C the next. If its U.S.P.S.A. one could be a master shotgun, C pistol, and A rifle. If it,s W.C. 3 gun it would be by over all finish ( by the way the top 50 are awarded an expert pin adding to the confusion of classification). Thats why I believe it all should be run heads up                                          KURT

In acknowledgement of that being a low blow. I shall now fall upon my key board and pour beer over myself untill "shocked" back to reality. Sorry Steve, you really do make a very good point at the end.