Head Position

[shred]

Todd definately teaches 'Head up', FWIW

[DRM]

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Quote: from Detlef on 12:21 pm on Dec. 3, 2002

DRM, would you give us a few names for the *fastest guys* you are referring to? That's always illustrative...

--Detlef

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Barnhart, Jet Dionisio, Jerry Miculek...

Stay safe,

[Detlef]

*The Jet* has been out of pistol shooting for a few y now, and I simply don't have any pix of him to recall or show (SOUND BETTER, PAUL???).

I happened to spend 5 days in the squad following Miculek a few months ago and consider his head position far from the extreme head-down-shoulder-up that you advocate on your web site. He looks relaxed though the head is indeed not as high up as some of the other shooters. His shoulders are *down* if you ask me. Now, we can argue all day long about this, but a pic is worth a thousand words or more, so I sent Brian 2 of my shots of Miculek to post in this thread. Everyone judge for yourselves....

--Detlef

(Edited by Detlef at 5:54 pm on Dec. 3, 2002)

[TravisT]

I would recommend to anybody who’s genuinely interested in this subject, to spend some time studying neuromuscular kinesthetics. Also research how your vision and eye speed is effected by rotating your eyes upward in their sockets (necessary for heads-down).

T2

[Paul Sharp]

Travis,

There has been extensive research done on this subject by those at the Olympic village.  For a short time, several years ago, most of the work was available on-line.  I can't find it now.  If someone knows where this material went please let me know.  It really was some good stuff.  The paper documented the history of the work to actually train for faster eye speed, starting with using hand-ball games with oddly shaped balls, (to bounce unpredictably), up to a head set worn over the eyes that displayed a little red dot that the athlete was to follow with his/her eyes.  With the headset they were on to something as the speed of the dots could be slowed or increased, thus providing a form of progressive resistance training.

At a shoot-fighting gym I trained in during '95-'96, one of the Japanese fighters had brought one of those headsets over.  What a fantastic tool.  In the fight game eye/perception speed is king, what you can't see will really mess your day up.

Detlef,

"*The Jet* has been out of pistol shooting for a few y now... "

Kind of an unsportsmanlike thing to say don't you think?  His accomplishments still stand and when he left he was a GM....., something I am not so I don't feel liberty to comment on his status as a shooter, other than to say, he obviously could shoot and any film I have seen of him shooting inspires me to train harder.

Sort of like saying Gable hasn't wrestled in a few years or Leonard hasn't boxed in a few years...., they still performed at a level I can't duplicate and most others can't either.

Thats all I have to say on that issue, thats definitely thread drift.

On to head position and its affect on eye speed/perception.

[Detlef]

Paul,

you made up all those negative connotations about Jet in my post! If you have a *as of late* pic (reread DRM's post) , show it to us. Lotsa Barnhart pix on his own web site. Those were the 3 *as of late* individuals DRM mentioned, and neither Miculek nor Barnhart look anywhere near heads-down-shoulder-up to me. Just for illustration, here's an *as of late* pic of Barnhart. Look how straight his head is!

--D.

(Edited by Detlef at 6:28 pm on Dec. 3, 2002)

[DRM]

In the first picture of Jerry (Miculek) he is shooting down towards the ground.  The second picture sure does look like his shoulders are up and his head is down to me...

Now, I thought the way Koenig shoots (for example) was "head up and shoulders down"...

O.K., I don't get it.  Sounds like we are redefining terms here...

Stay safe,

[Detlef]

DRM, that's why I thought we should look at pix rather than describe in words.

Plus (to turn your argument around) if this is what you meant by DUCK, then we are arguing over very little or nothing. I thought you meant the rather extreme crouch shown in some of the examples on your web site.

--D.

(Edited by Detlef at 7:58 pm on Dec. 3, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

Lots of video clips on this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...0&topic=302

[benos]

DRM,

"If we can keep the focus of the thread on technique for a minute (as opposed to name calling) I would like to try and make a point..."

I couldn't figure out what your "name calling" was in reference to, until you posted - "I was referencing the TDMF thing..."

My TDMF's comment was typed (I couldn't stop laughing) as I read the 5 or 6 religious comments on the first page of this thread. Sorry if you thought I was talking to you.

"In a simple search for the truth (in this case, finding out what head position works best for your type of shooting),  one can look at the World Shoot Off Championships (small steel targets shot "Man vs. Man" style)."

Are you implying that the man vs man format of that match should influence one's style or shooting position, or, in other words, that one might effectively shoot with a different (head) position if he was shooting single, timed runs on the same course of fire, as opposed to the man vs man format?

The format of that match promotes a very "get-set" or "racer-ready" start position. Additionally, the closely and evenly spaced plates emphasize specific components of equipment and technique – light loads, a quick draw from a fixed position, and a fairly "locked-up" final position, (effective because of the predictable target positioning) – so, eventually it’s common for a specific style to dominate in these fixed-course-of-fire tournaments.

I’m certainly no tactical expert, and I’m only saying this because you steered the thread toward a tactical slant with your first post – "Since you are going to duck in a fight anyway, why not just go there?" – it would seem that "tactical" and the "World Shootoff Championship" would have nothing to do with each other whatsoever.  

In contrast, most IPSC courses, especially at the World Match level, begin with not only a different start position, but require you to "do something" (unusual or unpredictable) before shooting your first shot (with full power loads). (Okay, it used to be full-power loads, now it’s really "fairly-full-power.) It would seem that IPSC’s original goal of testing and developing what works tactically is still doing so.

I’ve observed, in 20+ years of National and World level competition, in virtually every type of pistol, rifle, and shotgun competition, that specialized courses of fire eventually (in four or five years from the particular tournament’s inception) breed specialized equipment and specialized techniques, and, IMHO, should not be sold as tactical in nature. If there’s a timer involved, in IPSC or whatever, there’s nothing tactical about it.

It can be dangerous (if excellence in a particular realm is your goal) to cite one tournament’s techniques as a means to justify "the best" method to use in another quite different scenario. For example, the Jet was without doubt the best Steel Challenge shooter I ever  had the pleasure to watch. I studied him extensively over the years. Although he did finish well at the Nationals once, he never was a consistent threat (to the big three). After watching him shoot stage after stage over years of time, it was obvious why – he never learned how to blend his body’s movements and the shooting into one activity. His style lacked flexibility. He would hurriedly rush to a position – stop, set up and shoot - and then repeat for the rest of the stage. His rigid style could not adapt to the flexible style needed for the more unpredictable IPSC courses. Let him plant his feet in a box though, and watch out.

"If you are into precision shooting, head up is fine.  It works well for Doug Koenig, BE and others.  But for tactical/defensive use, I’d rather exploit the body’s natural instincts as opposed to suppressing them."

First, as far as I could tell, this thread originally had to do with "tactical." Second, to passively categorize me as a "precision shooter" means to me that you know nothing about me.

While it’s true that I did win a couple Bianchi Cups, (I’m guessing that’s your "precision shooting" reference), I also won a couple World (Limited) Steel Challenges (pretty quick stuff), qualified for the U.S. World IPSC team for at least 15 straight years, (It might have been 18, I’m no good with dates. Okay, for you thread-drifter’s, I can get a date now and then – it’s periods of time I’m clueless with., as well as a couple seconds at the U.S. IPSC Nationals, and I was on the winning National Championship Team at the Sportsman’s Team Challenge for at least five years, (Again that date thing.), as well as a Masters Championship. Out of all that the only thing I’d consider "precision" is the Bianchi Cup. And although it is a tad slow, it’s extremely difficult – that’s why nobody shoots it.

To finish, I’ll list a few (off the top-of-my-head) essential elements that helped me (be successful over the years) –

Attitude:

A relentless, never-ending desire to improve.

Will use any means to do so – I’ll query anyone (beginner to the best) about anything, read and study everything obtainable, and train forever to implement what I discovered as useful (for me).

Learned when to think and when it’s beneficial to maintain a continuous state of attention or awareness.

Studying human behavior, I realized that what worked for Rob or Jerry didn’t necessarily work for me – although I could match or (on occasion ) exceed their scores.

Again studied behavior and learned when the body’s "natural reaction was right, and when it’s not right." (Now that’s a never-ending topic.)

Learned to not overlook ANY detail.

To consistently execute in competition what I’d learned in practice, I realized you must learn – who you are, your skills, and how the two combine to work for or against you in various environments.

Learned to: DECIDE exactly what I’m going to do, and COMMIT to doing it no matter what. This could be called establishing clear intent. Support this by TRUSTING that what I’ve trained to do is all I need (to attempt to) do.

If necessary, depending on Temperament – learn to differentiate between the effort (most effectively) used in practice and what it feels like to apply that same physical sense of effort under varying levels of stress.

Essentials:

Learned the difference between what was essential, what supported what was essential, and what was helpful but not essential.

Learned what was essential was to find (visually locate) the target, point the gun at the target, and hold it there until the bullet left the barrel, and repeat.

Learned that good mechanical technique supports the essentials by allowing them to manifest more quickly, consistently, and efficiently.

Technique:

Learned you must keep the eyes open and clearly seeing at all times.

Eliminate wasted or unnecessary motion - Keeping upper body movement to a minimum during the draw, transitions, or basically at all times. (By means of relentless dry-fire/drawing/reloading/movemnt practice, as well as learning to remain aware during live-fire practice and matches to continually refine this.)

Developed an upper body position that allows the eyes to look fairly straight out of their sockets, allowing quick, precise, and flexible seeing.

Developed a strong yet flexible, neutral grip, with both hands placed as high on the pistol as comfortably possible, which allows the pistol to cycle predictably – shot to shot, day in day out.

Learned to maintain this grip while only moving the trigger with enough effort to fire the pistol. (Within reason of course.)

Learned to not only keep the eyes open and seeing clearly, but to keep them continuously "moving." There is extreme subtlety in this – I feel I’ll always continue to learn in this realm.

gnfn, (good night for now)

be

[Paul Sharp]

Brian,

First, thanks for the comprehensive post, there is a lot of info there, that is definitely a print and read type post.  If I can attempt to give my thoughts on this query, "Are you implying that the man vs man format of that match should influence one's style or shooting position, or, in other words, that one might effectively shoot with a different (head) position if he was shooting single, timed runs on the same course of fire, as opposed to the man vs man format?"

If you watch the clips at sportshooter.com of all the big guns shooting, I see a trend.  As Flex alluded to, this is something I think the hard working shooter should study, ie; the mannerisms and methods of the top shooters.  When watching a clip of you shooting a course that was very aggressive, with close, multiple targets and movement, your body language was very aggressive.  I think it was the Winchester event, you were driving the gun into the targets, your shoulders came up, or your head came down, (chicken and egg, as Krishnamurti would say, its really One ) with a forward lean.  My point in this is, if the top guy's end up there as a result of their bodies natural reaction to the mind telling them to manage recoil..., shouldn't we just start there?  I know Bill Rogers is teaching in this manner and it would seem to be effective.  Last week I watched a clip of one of his guy's putting a magazine into a target, with his eyes closed and head turned away from the target, as fast as he could work the trigger, and you could have covered his group with an index card, very impressive.  His contention is that this posture "locks" the weapon in.  I understand that to a degree this will come down to personality types, Jerry will shoot like that even under the influence of morphine, but it would seem that when a course of fire dictates, fast and furious fire, everyone goes there.  I have the tape of Jerry Miculek setting his record, his posture is wrapped around and over the gun, at least that is how it appears to me I realize that is probably not a great word picture, but that was the visual affect that registered with me as he was holding the weapon on target.  So, it would seem that the posture does change as the demand for greater recoil management presents itself.  Sort of a whole body application of the analogy some use concerning holding the weapon like a hammer, for small nails a light grip will work for driving big nails a stronger grip is needed.  For slower paced shooting, less lean, for faster paced shooting, more lean.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.  Its these types of discussions that cause me to elucidate the whys that decide the whats.

[DRM]

Great post Brian.  Thank you for taking the time to write it.  There is a wealth of information, experience and philosophy in there.  Now I just have to mine it all out!

Because of your wins at the Masters & Bianchi Cup, I have always considered you a more of a precision shooter (I meant that as a compliment) as opposed to a speed demon like Jet, Jerry, Jerry or Robbie.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to make up for speed with smoothness (again, I mean this as a compliment).  

In regards to the World Shoot Off’s, guys like Barnhart, Jet, McLearn, Miculek, etc., have all told me that they felt it was the toughest match in the world.

As far as the WSO format goes, it’s just like the Steel Challenge (only harder).  The targets are smaller and you have to shoot Man vs. Man all the time.

Jet dominated this match for years until Miculek finally caught him.  I also thought Jet was runner up at a World IPSC shoot one time???  Anyway, I digress, now back to the subject of head position...

I am not suggesting that you use (2) different methods of shooting (i.e., head up for this and then head down for that).  But it does appear to me that some top shooters are doing just that (either knowingly or unknowingly).  Just an observation from a guy who does shoot and teach ‘head down shoulders up’ ALL the time (head down, with chin forward, that is).  Knees are slightly bent, squared up to target (not necessarily crouching).  

This method has worked for me and is working well for my FIST-FIRE students, especially those of slighter build (the head down, shoulders up really helps control the recoil better). But we are looking at shooting from a different angle.  We are building our shooting platform around weapons retention and ‘hand to hand’ for Close Quarter Battle use.

The reason I prefer the head down, shoulders up, is because after studying films of street gunfights, it was quite evident that is how people shoot under stress.   There are lots of other reasons for it as well, but that may be considered “Thread Drifting”…

Stay safe,

D.R. Middlebrooks - Director

Tactical Shooting Academy (TSA)

http://www.TacticalShooting.com

(Edited by DRM at 7:25 am on Dec. 4, 2002)

[benos]

Paul,

"As Flex alluded to, this is something I think the hard working shooter should study, ie; the mannerisms and methods of the top shooters."

I'm right with you on that. In fact, I felt at times I'd sacrificed my performance (results) at major competitions because I just HAD TO study certain shooters. But even at the time I didn't care because I'm addicted to learning (compared to winning).

Paul and DR,

I'm definitely aware of shooting with different overall techniques and positions under differing environments. Often, especially with a stock-type gun, taking the PERCEIVED TIME to be "locked in" or "set" is not a bad thing.

Naturally, you'll attempt to shoot closer or easier targets faster, and usually with a little more resulting muscle tension. IN COMPETITION, the body's natural reaction to tense up is not the best response. The trick is to learn to retain the stability, neutrality, and integrity of your position while NOT adding more muscle tension (to predictably return the pistol from recoil) than necessary at that instant. This allows the quick, precise movements you've so diligently trained in practice to manifest under stress.

IN COMPETITION, for me, any time I tense up as the result of an uncontrolled reaction, I will shoot worse than I know I could have. And then the really interesting thing is that, in practice or competition, when I would successfully manage to not become "tension-man," my subtleties of my upper body's position would resultingly be quite different than it (normally) would (if I was too tense). I would not only would shoot more precisely then, but I'd shoot even quicker as well.

I learned that once you're too tense, it's almost impossible to "back off" to the appropriate level DURING a course of fire. I also learned that, especially in competition, if you consciously FEEL like your beginning a string of fire at a tension or "output level" a little lower than you normally would (for a quick string of fire), your body will "set itself" to the appropriate level simultaneously with the first shot you fire.

At this point you've gained control over your body's involuntary reaction, and opened the door to a potentially impeccable (under stress) performance.

It’s true that - until your heartbeat reaches the level where you can no longer accurately perform fine motor skills - the heightened visual acuity and sensitivity resulting from stress can be used to your advantage. You can't tap this resource, however, if you involuntarily tense up. Your results will be at best acceptable, but never extraordinary.

Again, as usual, I'm talking about competition only. Who can say until you've been there what you'll do defensively.

be

[Paul Sharp]

Brian,

Thanks for taking time to discuss this aspect of shooting.  Any insight I can gather from other shooters is greatly appreciated.  Again, another indepth post that I will have to print and read several times.  I agree, learning is the most important aspect of any competition.  Nothing teaches as well as experience.  

What are your thoughts on this perspective.  If under stress of competition one tenses up, thus affecting negatively, to some degree, ones ability to perform, wouldn't it make sense to accept this tension, maybe even foster it while practicing/training for competition so that one can perform optimally while under competition induced stress.  Sort of an environmental acclimation process.  For boxing, NHB and submission wrestling competitions we use "smokers" to acclimate the guy's to match stress.  We attempt to induce as closely as possible the conditions of a match so they get used to performing at the highest possible level in that situation.  This is my motivation/thought process' in trying to find the solution in this issue.  Accept that this happens, now work with it rather than waste resources fighting it.

Detlef,

Thanks for posting that picture as it illustrates perfectly my point.  The Burner's shoulders and ears are practically on the same plane.  That would indicate a head down/shoulders up posture.  Which is what I've been talking about.

[Flexmoney]

Good stuff.

I should mention, as a disclaimer (before Anderson or Seevers calls me on it), that I tend to shoot with an aggressive stance and grip...head down.

Brian has often said to let the body sort this stuff out.  An extension of that is to then evaluate what the body has done naturally and see if it makes sense.  Maybe the "natural" (possibly ingrained thought or habit) way isn't the best?

I try not to watch much golf on TV.  I am sure we have all seen the "swing evaluations" that the commentators do, however.  They take the top pro golfers and evaluate their swings with freeze-frame and super-slo-motion.  Even the best of the best in that game (and they likely have more training and resources to draw on than we) seem to make mistakes on a reular basis.

I guess my point is that...even our best shooters...our cream-of-the-crop, they aren't likely getting it perfect.  They certainly aren't getting it right all the time.  When we watch them, we should realize they are struggling with all this stuff too (to some extent).

[Detlef]

good, Paul, then it seems we are arguing nuances. Keep in mind, though, that JB has a short neck. His head is almost straight up, and I see no signs of the DUCK that DRM brought up, or of the crouch-like tense postures in the examples on his web site.

Btw. JB was shooting a partial target at about 15 y and a mover at about 20 y in this pic. No close-up hosing...

--D.

[FreddyTbone]

Prepare to be Tboned!

Freddy's in the House....

[FreddyTbone]

Brian....DR. Death and the like,

Sweet Jesus girls...what is all the arguing about?  Hell anyone that knows anything knows that Massad had this stuff figured out years before be. materialized on this planet.......i.e. the Vulture Down method............you know I love you all, so please don't fuss.  Hell, in the sceem of things, when you consider how many guys out there are teaching retard shooting skills.....anything on this site certainly has an edge up...

I have all the love and  respect in the world for my man be. ... since we have shared many great moments in battle together....slinging lead in places all over the planet.  Knowing the depth of his talent and more importantly his insight into this form we call handgun shooting...I can rest assured that he has found more answers to these questions than any other.  After all he was always "knee deep and goin in".

As for you Mr. Death.....you know I  respect you too...so when you are playing on the masters turf, you might want to wear those fufu spikes instead of the steel ones.....

For all of you sponges out there.....gasping for knowledge....at least I can say you have found the oracle of truth at this location....  So good luck on your Journey.....and prepare to be Tboned!

FreddyC

[TravisT]

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but you seem to make up for speed with smoothness

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MAKU mozo!

T-Bone! Is this THE Freddy....the one that built my Fantom .40 that rocks the house?! Is this da man?!

DH- Great shot of the Burner! I can't remember which stage that is

[Detlef]

it was the big stage (30 rds?) with 2 movers in the back, and the close up targets up front where Eric had a no-shoot.

I have a few of you on the BP-sponsored stage where you blew everyone away in what, 11 sec or so? Oh yes, TT is a perfect example of head-way-up-shoulders-way-down...

--D.

[FreddyTbone]

Big T....

It is true........It is Me.    

By the way thanks for throwing me that bone on the big stick!   You Rock.....and certainly are the Great Young Hope...

I must say that I have never participated on a forum before, mostly because the others are just too damn infested with.....well you know,  I can't say.

Anyway what the hell is UP? and is it true what I hear about the possible AMU thing?

[Detlef]

talk about thread drift.....

[Paul Sharp]

"Sweet Jesus girls...what is all the arguing about?"

That sounds like a cool band name.....

No arguing, just throwing out my thoughts so that others can call me on the B.S. so to speak.  Its one of the big draws on this forum, folks here tend to point out an error or short-coming in ones thought process in a logical manner as opposed to some other places....

Honesty, its a good thing, although I really would like to walk around for a week or two as a legend in my own mind.  

Detlef,

Nuances it may be.  I'm not sure what type of crouch your thinking of, I'm thinking of the same posture I would use to bring a basketball down court, kind of an athletic type thing.  What are you thinking of?  You mentioned D.R.'s site, can you snag a pic or point me to one that shows what you are thinking of when you say "extreme crouch".

Flex,

This is a good point but I'm not sure how one would train to be un-natural,  "Maybe the "natural" (possibly ingrained thought or habit) way isn't the best? "

Definitely something to think about.

"I guess my point is that...even our best shooters...our cream-of-the-crop, they aren't likely getting it perfect.  They certainly aren't getting it right all the time.  When we watch them, we should realize they are struggling with all this stuff too (to some extent)."

Thats a very important point.  One of my Jits coaches told me something once that mirrors this, he said that BJJ is like boxes inside of boxes, when you think you have found everything, you find another aspect in your game to improve.  Shooting is similar, on the surface all you have to do is put the weapon on target, with sights aligned and don't disturb the alignment as the bullet leaves the muzzle.  Obviously we can see it takes a lifetime of effort to perfect this, if "perfection" can ever be attained.

Gotta' admit, it sure is fun trying!

[Paul Sharp]

A good point Brian brought up is, this type of posture occurs "naturally" when shooting a stock type pistola.  Having your head up is a necessity I think when shooting an open pistol, because of the optics and the comp takes care of a lot of the recoil management.

[Detlef]

Paul,

to begin with the pics of yourself and Dan under *Photos*. Your heads seem tucked in low, your shoulders very elevated, biceps about nose level (though perspective can always fool us on these pix...). Dan's head is also tilted downward, so that the eye must roll upwards to see. Again, just as yourself I am trying to analyse this, not grade it. Sure enough, Miculek and Barnhart are among the lower-headed top shooters, but they are *still* not tense crouchers (for lack of a better term, nothing else...).

--D.