Recoil

[hdgun]

Mainly limited, lim 10, production.

Watching vid clips of top shooters, I have noticed that there guns dont move. ( muzzle rise ) all I can see in any vid clip is the slide going back and forth.

In my own shooting I know the muzzle rises becouse I can see the sight rise out of the rear notch. ( not that their guns don't rise ) I know my gun does not shoot as flat as theirs.

What makes these guns run soo flat?

Is it technique? gun control? loads?

Inquiring minds want to know!!

[Pierruiggi]

I'd say technique and focus on shooting would be first, with loads playing a smaller role.

Keep in mind that you always percieve the sights lifting "a lot" while people that witness your shooting may be seeing a flat shooting gun.

I remember Travis Tomasie talking about this, though I don't remember if it was here or at his and Max Michel's forums.

[achard]

I agree with pierru, just recently (sunday) when I had my fellow shooter told me that my recoil doesn't flip much.

[XRe]

Try this for something interesting... Go to your bedroom or bathroom - somewhere with a mirror. Stand so you're facing 90 degrees from the mirror (ie, the mirror is directly left or right from you). Now, take a sight picture and then "simulate" the position you remember the front sight traveling to in recoil, and hold it at the top of the travel. Now, look at the mirror, while holding that position. You'll probably find that the muzzle has moved upwards far less than it appears from the sight picture.

Couple that with the speed with which recoil occurs, and you get a gun that looks a lot flatter than it really is.

Then, add in gun setup (light recoil springs tend to flip less), load dynamics, etc (all of which also tend to make the gun cycle more quickly).

Then, add in the control of the top shooters which allows them to limit that front sight travel to some extent - and to time the return, which also adds to the effect.

More than likely, the gun isn't flipping as much as you think it is when you shoot it If it is, you can work on the above

[Mistral404]

This is an interesting discussion because I see at least two sides to it. I too have noticed that the big dawgs have what appears to me as very little muzzle flip. I heard tha TJ or DK (?) broke their safety off because of all the downward pressure they exert. I have had Blake M. shake my hand with the pressure he grips his gun--it was pretty strong grip.

I believe Brian's book emphasizes a more relaxed method of holding the gun. One which facilitates or integrates better with maintaining a relaxed trigger finger. I thnk Brian's approach is best for the majority of us. Robbie has talked at length about the importance of the trigger finger.

I think the big boys have learned how to have an amazingly independent trigger finger while having a very firm grip. For us mere mortals, I use a more relaxed grip then the death grip and really try on focus on the trigger pull. But I am slowing than most folks.

On the equipment side, I have noticed that an extended frame and Springco result in less muzzle flip. Same shooter, same ammo and same training session. Less muzzle flip. I have shot a friend's 6in gun in a couple of matches using my ammo and I notice signficant reduction in muzzle flip. But this is a digression for the original question. sorry

[mcoliver]

I think it's also the crappy videocam that can't capture enough frames to really show the full muzzle rise.

[BigDave]

I noticed on the 2003 Open Nat's DVD that the older guys like Rob, Todd, and JoJo had the least flip. The younger guys, M2 especially, had the most.

[Paladin]

one of the things I did to guage the development of my shooting vision was to see muzzle flip and muzzle flash. I actually forced myself to see this and as I developed I got faster whilst still maintaining accuracy..today I see lots of flip in the top shooters weapon even in Open.. you gotta train those eyes to see all that is happening right before you!!

[-M2]

Hello,

Funny you guys are talking about this...

TT and I have discussed this before.

Recoil is one of those things that we cannot stop. It is going to happen no matter what. I have always said, as long as you know the timing of your gun the muzzle flip really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, who ever hits the targets is the winner, right?

Someone mentioned the older guys having less muzzle flip. I agree TJ has a very flat shooting gun, but JoJo has some of the biggest muzzle flip out of the top shooters. Maybe the 2003 DVD shows differently but again, it really doesn't matter. For instance, check out JJ Racaza and Chris Tilley, they have huge muzzle flip and those guys are still amazing.

Take care,

-M2

[diehli]

JoJo and I were talking about gun setup (soft vs. flat) and I mentioned Chris and he mentioned JJ as both really letting the gun come up. From what I've seen of JoJo lately his gun doesn't come up much at all. It's gotta be the *thumb rest [generic]*.

[10mmdave]

Mainly limited, lim 10, production.

Watching vid clips of top shooters, I have noticed that there guns dont move. ( muzzle rise ) all I can see in any vid clip is the slide going back and forth.

In my own shooting I know the muzzle rises becouse I can see the sight rise out of the rear notch. ( not that their guns don't rise ) I know my gun does not shoot as flat as theirs.

What makes these guns run soo flat?

Is it technique? gun control? loads?

Inquiring minds want to know!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Start working out Dude

[Thomas Moore]

mcoliver hit the nail on the head. what you see on video vs real time is going to be different. depending on the camera and the amount of frames per second it captures. the human eye will always be better than a camera. you're probably just missing a few frames per second. the human eye can observe more than 60 frames per second, where good video cameras only capture 30 frames per second.

[Heath]

Has anyone noticed the forearm muscle definition of some of the top production shooters? I'm specifically thinking of Dave Sevigny.

The greater one's grip strength, the more firmly one can grip the gun without affecting trigger control. I just wonder how much additional grip strength helps with recoil control.

[-M2]

Has anyone noticed the forearm muscle definition of some of the top production shooters?  I'm specifically thinking of Dave Sevigny.

The greater one's grip strength, the more firmly one can grip the gun without affecting trigger control.  I just wonder how much additional grip strength helps with recoil control.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a very fine line here... Yes, Sevigny and other shooters really show there grip pressure thourgh the muscle definition in the forearms.

What I mean by a fine line is... If you start death griping the gun then you are adding extra tension to your entire body, which will cause you to not only shoot much slower but most importantly, react slower!

You have to find that happy medium of grip strength and over kill. I like to grip with most of the tension coming from my weakhand, allowing my trigger finger to be "tension free".

Oh well, hope that helps.

-M2

[XRe]

I really like what Brian has to say about this in The Good Book... To paraphrase - he basically says that you'll *know* how much tension you need to use (in both hands) much like you naturally know how much tension you need to grip a hammer when striking a nail, or when gripping a steering wheel while driving a car.

When I start focusing on "grip firm so my muscles stand out like 'so-and-so'", I end up getting real tense and uncomfortable - and sometimes receive some nice elbow and wrist pain under recoil. When I focus on gripping lightly, the gun's all over the place. If I stay out of the way, my body figures it out on it's own. Then I just accept what I see, and focus on seeing the sights lift *straight* up and return straight down - that seems to neutralize the grip pressure. It's all rock and roll from there