johnbu Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 A friend and i were talking Carry Optics. I use a dovetail mount on a tanfo. He tried a dovetail on his CZ, liked the dot...hated the mount. Kept coming loose and was higher than optimum for him. So he sent it with his vortex dot to get a slide mill from a reputable company*. It came back Friday and has what he thinks is a problem. (*Withholding name of the company in case this is normal) Slide came back with a milled flat spot, two screw holes and zero studs. The vortex spec calls out 4 raised 8.00mm studs in the corners to hold it solidly in place. But his slide is flat, no raised areas (studs? dowels?) and the dot starts wobbling within one magazine's worth of shots! He wants to know if that is an acceptable slide cut. If so, how is he supposed to lock down the dot. Locktote 242 is not holding. If it's not acceptable... well i guess he has a fight on his hands. but can it be fixed? Photo of his slide as recieved is included. I told him the people on Enos would be able to enlighten us on the issue. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) Every mounting plate or milled slide I have seen for a slide mounted scope has had either raised posts or holes where posts can be inserted to align the scope. The screws are to hold the scope to the slide, the posts are to ensure alignment. Both are required in my opinion. it could be fixed by drilling additional holes where they are required for alignment and insert posts. CZ Custom use this method so you can use various scopes by using different holes. Edited April 10, 2017 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 CZ Custom example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) Ok, maybe he can get them to do that? But, shouldn't it have been done that way from the get go? His also looks to have been shaved deeper. maybe too deep to allow posts to be inserted? Edited April 10, 2017 by johnbu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsand Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I'd not be happy with that milling job. The Dr footprint requires those pins as locating tabs. They are also the reason you can return to zero when removing the sight from the base. Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmi63 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I would like to know who did the milling. You can PM me if you don't want to mention it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman195 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I had a issue with mine not zeroing (I have a post about it). Sent it back to the guys that did the milling and fixed it no problem. For the Vortex I also did not have any elevated posts cut into the optic. Not that you mention the posts, I couldn't tell you what the bottom of the optic looks like but I do know that my RMR has these posts and the slide cut on my shadow does not. Interesting. Guess we'll wait and see how it goes when i take the gun out to play next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mro111lland Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I was told by vortex customer service that the pins are for recoil and with out them would break the base of the sight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 The scope needs to sit on a platform that is parallel to the barrel and has locating pins/posts. Any other setup is wrong, and will fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman195 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 57 minutes ago, mro111lland said: I was told by vortex customer service that the pins are for recoil and with out them would break the base of the sight Makes sense. I know my RMR was stuck on the two pins pretty good, when I took it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 Send it back for post holes to be milled in. If there is enough of the slide left for screw holes, I'm sure there is enough for the shallow post holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ck867 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 The way that slide is milled does appear to be an issue on the optic staying in place. Here is a pic of my cz slide that I had Springer Precision milled for a Deltapoint Pro. The optic sits very tight on the slide and the screws are only there to hold the optic in place. Optic has not loosened at all after 1k rounds so far in test fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) Just to clarify ... this is a friend's gun. He wanted to hear the wisdom of the Enos mind trust. (I told him it looked fubar!) You guys are his "second opinion". He is way nicer than me. I'd be lacing up the butt kicker boots about now. Lol. He has attempted contact with the shop, but no response yet. The company he used is well known and has a good reputation. I do hope they correct this situation without prompting. Ck867, your slide has a ledge in the back. His was milled off there too. Zero support against recoil. I did look up the vortex print on mounting. My "hope" is they shipped it by mistake before it was finished. But my fear is they messed up and tried to make it go away by ignoring it. My friend is VERY bummed out about this. He had planned on running it this season. web_manual_venom_reddot_diagram.pdf Edited April 10, 2017 by johnbu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) I was sent this picture as an example of a correct slide cut for a vortex venom. Edited April 10, 2017 by johnbu better image of mount spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taadski Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 Just FWIW... I had a Sig 226 milled for an RMR very early on. No bosses. I'm not competing with it as I'm still focusing on production; more just vetting it in concept. I'm pushing 10K through it. And aside from having one RMR go tits up, I've not had any zero issues. Mine does have the support of some rear slide left as I had them leave the dovetail in place for suppressor sights. Just sharing *my* mileage. t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarr Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I sent a shadow slide to a reputable company ( no names at this point ) it came back with no pins and the mounting screws were over sized with the Vortex Viper's mounting holes drilled out for the larger screws. The mounting surface was not flat. I sent it back and they re-milled the surface flat. They stated the larger screws were needed to hold the viper in placed. At this point let me say this ... the pins hold the red dot from moving ... the mounting screws hold the red dot on the pins... I am highly upset over this. The dot failed within a couple hundred rounds... vortex did a warranty exchange. Now question Is ... do I weld the oversized holes up and start over and get the pins ... or just try to get pins and drill the new dot out... or drill the dot and run without pins. Oh and because the mounting holes are larger... I can not put the dot on something else and/or a different dot on the slide without drilling the holes out. I have a mess ... I could have done better than what I got on my buddies mill... but I decided to send it to a company with AAA+++ reputation thinking I would get a first class job and not have to worry about screwing it up myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsand Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I was sent this picture as an example of a correct slide cut for a vortex venom. That's how I would have expected the slide cut to look like. I wonder if they did a angled cut or flat 0degree. Apparently you need a 1 degree cut otherwise you run out of elevation. Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 If you run without pins then you will likely break another scope. I would contact a better gunsmith and get pins put in and make sure the platform is parallel to the barrel. It may be possible to weld up and resize the screw holes to spec as well. Its better to spend the extra money and get it fixed by people that have done this before rather than send it back to the same person that messed it up in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taadski Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: If you run without pins then you will likely break another scope. I would contact a better gunsmith and get pins put in and make sure the platform is parallel to the barrel. It may be possible to weld up and resize the screw holes to spec as well. Its better to spend the extra money and get it fixed by people that have done this before rather than send it back to the same person that messed it up in the first place. I don't believe not having the bosses was what caused the failure with the Trijicon, FWIW. Specifically because I know a number of folks that have had identical RMR issues despite running them with bosses from multiple vendors. (shrug) Who do you recommend as a smith doing this type of work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 For CZ I would go to CZ Custom, they have been doing this since before it became a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 K. Time to address this. After speaking to a few other reputable company's and addressing the Vortex PDF manual it statest the optic needs bosses or posts to keep align, other wise the dot may suffer damage in recoil. I also called company that did the work. I explain that I had degreased holes, used blue lock tight, and let sit over night. Optic still comes loose completely uncaptured. Company guy says even if I send it in all they're gonna do is the same thing use lock tite. After I repeatedly stated I had done that already. Then the person goes on to suggest I use longer screws (other then the supplied ones). I also, have already done this. I was told they have done "hundreds like this, with no problem". When I asked what they intend to do if it still won't hold after I degrease, loctite, and screw again, I am told "I don't even wanna go there, because we are not to that point yet." I am whole heartedly trying to give them a chance. But seemingly they might not back this up. The only thing holding dot down is the Conical V part on the bottom of screw head. So once that loosens the dot had plenty of wiggle room. The screws shaft OD is smaller then optic hole ID so once the 3 threads course threaded screws come loose, absolutely nothing is holding them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 $480 for a complete new Shadow upper from CZC $250 for it to be milled by them. Roughly a $700 lesson. Sucky, but I don't think the original shop did the work correctly and it sounds like no refund is forthcoming. (Which is what I'd ask for. Give them my slide only and they give me back money.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 Based on the conversation that you have posted with this company I seriously doubt that they will rectify this problem. I suggest contacting another company and explain the situation and see if they can provide a permanent fix. For anyone else considering getting their slides milled for CO, I would strongly suggest checking out the gunsmith's website and/or ask for photographs showing how they perform the milling for your type of gun. And make sure they mount it parallel to the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 I have contacted 2 other A+ reputable companys with pictures. One said it looks very iffy and is genuine shocked the other company would do such work, and wouldn't be able to fix it. The other company hasn't responded yet. I'm seriously hoping there is enough meat left in slide for another company to drill in posts. Another thing I should mention is original company stated they have never heard of machining in bosses or posts, and dot only weighs a couple ounces so it shouldn't come loose....really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 Even if I try red lock tite instead of blue, and it holds, how am I to trust that in a match and on a gun that is to see thousands of rounds? Common sense says more then likely it will eventually loosen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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