Idpa State Championship Questions

[rwmagnus]

My question is, in your opinion what distinguishes a State Championshio from other matches?

In other words what do you want in a State Championship? I'm looking for feedback from other IDPA shooters what they feel makes for a memoriable match ....other than winning their class! Thanks.

[Clay1]

I would be looking forward to straight targets that test various skills. No trick types of shots. Max range shoots, close burn 'em down speed shoots, accuracy specific shots, a variety.

[Mark Perez]

"In other words what do you want in a State Championship?"

I personally would like to have 9 to 12 really good stages vs more mediocre ones.

Quality vs. quantity.

Organized squad schedule.

(sadly , that's been lacking at our state and regionals - topic for another thread).

By that I mean , stages that demand a higher degree of accuracy and precision .

It's a championship level match for crying out loud , it ain't supposed to be easy.

Genuine props - example : real cars or whatever the stage demands.

Courses of fire that have multiple solutions , like play it safe and slow or risk a crash and burn for a better time.

just some thoughts off the top for now ,

Mark

Edited June 3, 2005 by Mark Perez

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Mark gave an excellent answer which I will add to.

There needs to be one "Standards" stage that tests accuracy out to the IDPA 35 yard limit.

8 or 9 scenario based stages including one low or no light, some weak hand only, and include one "use the gun left over" stage semi for the wheel gun shooters, revolver for the bottom feeders.

And don't forget a good lunch

Regards,

[Sac Law Man]

I like to see 10-12 well balanced stages. I am not in favor of 18 round stages, unless several targets are shot numerous times. I think shooting 9 targets 2x each is just too unrealistic. There are more creative ways to increase the round count. Movers are good, but not the shooting gallery stage in which you open a door and are faced with several movers at the same time. Try and stick with the principles of IDPA, short fast stages are OK too.

I believe in offering good awards as well. Its important to give something back to the shooters which will make them want to come back year after year.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I believe in offering good awards as well.  Its important to give something back to the shooters which will make them want to come back year after year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To add to this idea, best award I ever got was a cast belt buckle from the 2001 New England Regional Championship at Pioneer in new Hampshire. Much better than a wall hanger.

Regards,

[Practical Use]

I would prefer simple stages - by simple I mean no trick stuff (e.g. draw a card, only shoot targets that match the card - or even worse, the color you draw are the hostage targets).

I second the idea of as many "real" props as possible. There are a ton of things a club can obtain if they put there members to work. For example, at my "home" range we have several old mail boxes - great props.

Movers, yes, but deployed in a realistic manner. If possible, targets that charge you. Or targets that move on a track of some kind across the range.

It is hard to design stages that are really defensive in nature. It is much easier to have the standard, "there are 9 bad guys in your back yard, open the back door and proceed to the brick wall and engage all nine." I also question stages that have one dashing from Cover at A, to Cover at B, and then cover at Position C. I don't know about must of you, but I am not leaving cover for anything if I don't have to.

Now, all that being said, I commend those that make the effort to be a match director, and try to put on a match that is fair, diffiuclt without being intimidating, and meets everyone's idea of what is "tactical," or "realistic."

Ed

[rwmagnus]

Thanks guys keep the ideas comming. at our monthly matches we get to shoot 8 stages which is the most of all the local clubs. The State Championship will be 10 stages and yes Standards will be included.

The directors really want to make the Championship special so we're pull'n out the stops. I love the comments posted so far and many have been already considered.

While the final stage designs haven't been made and I'm still looking for suggestions is there anything other than stage design and suggestions already made that really seperate the men from the boys?

[Mark Perez]

While the final stage designs haven't been made and I'm still looking for suggestions is there anything other than stage design and suggestions already made that really seperate the men from the boys?

Plate Rack

35 yds,

Ltd. Vickers

Load only 6.

Would make a good standards type stage.

RWMangus,

where is your state match going to be?

Edited June 4, 2005 by Mark Perez

[freeidaho]

RW,

For me it boils down to five things.... in my limited experience.

1) Not just shooting, but Memorable Shooting.

Shooters ought to be talking about the unique stages of your match for years to come. To me this also means the stages need to be hard, and fun, and leave you with the feeling that you'd like to try it again. I personally like scenario stages. After all this is a sport about self defense shooting. Tell the shooter how they got into this mess, and what options they have to save their butt. A well written scenario can make it make sense to move between two areas of cover, or charge an adversary. I like charger, rocking, disappearing, flop up then down, and drop turner targets to aid in making the stage more real. I like wall props to make the targets visible only when they need to be shot.

2) Good organization.

As a counter example, it doesn't make much sense to put a map of where to park in a packet, when the shooter has already had to guess where to park and where to go to pickup up the packet. The match should flow smoothly, and be well thought out. That means thinking about everything the shooter is going to have to do starting with when he/she enters the gate, and ends when they leave the gate. This means a lot of planning and organization.

3) Friendliness.

Everyone should make every shooter feel at home.

4) Fair and consistent officiating. Not Santa Clause, and not Hitler, just friendly SOs that know their stuff and that can make you feel glad they gave you the procedural you earned. If any SOs apply that have poor people skills, please pass on them, and let them run water, or something else.

5) A dedicated photographer.

I'd like to see at least 500 photos of everyone and every aspect of the match posted on the host club's website for a sanctioned match. This means getting someone to take pix during the staff's shooting and during the contestant's shooting, not just some guy that is shooting and carries a pocket camera with him. A bonus is being able to buy a video of the match, like NWPPA did for a couple of years. Here again, a dedicated vidoegrapher, not someone part time.

Hope this helps ! ! !

Ken Reed

[revchuck]

In addition to the above excellent advice, a clear set of directions that assumes that the shooter following them is not familiar with the area. Many clubs have directions on their websites that assume that the shooter is a local, and start with directions from a locally well known point of reference that out-of-towners aren't familiar with.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

While the final stage designs haven't been made and I'm still looking for suggestions is there anything other than stage design and suggestions already made that really seperate the men from the boys?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry Vickers Mini Monster Standards

Par Time

Limited Vickers

36 rounds Max 180 points possible

If you want it get me a fax number for 2 pages.

Regards,

Gary

[rwmagnus]

While the final stage designs haven't been made and I'm still looking for suggestions is there anything other than stage design and suggestions already made that really seperate the men from the boys?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry Vickers Mini Monster Standards

Par Time

Limited Vickers

36 rounds Max 180 points possible

If you want it get me a fax number for 2 pages.

Regards,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check PM.

[rwmagnus]

While the final stage designs haven't been made and I'm still looking for suggestions is there anything other than stage design and suggestions already made that really seperate the men from the boys?

Plate Rack

35 yds,

Ltd. Vickers

Load only 6.

Would make a good standards type stage.

RWMangus,

where is your state match going to be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SoCal where the LA Olympics were shot, check website

http://prado-idpa.com/

[rwmagnus]

WOW you guys are comming up with some good stuff . I really like the idea of a decicated photographer shooting stills and video. If a professional doesn't work out maybe an aspiring college student studying the art. An organized parking lot with directions is a very good start which could be emailed to everone prior to the Championship.

Our matches usually have an abundance of REAL props, cars , mailboxes, airline seats, stairs etc. Our State championship will be awesome, not a theme park but real props adding value to the scenarios.

Just found out today we are going to get a Huey helicopter to work with. Could make for a very interesting stage....your at the airfield touring a military display including a helocopter when all hell breaks out you use your sidearm to protect yourself and property, dropping to prone dispatching the first three gunmen at 20 yards, you notice several more duck into the building with your daughter as hostage, you call 911 on the pay phone and come under attack again from the window of the building (payphone is an activator), you take low cover behind a 55 gallon trash can return fire and enter the building to rescue your daughter (could even be a dimly lit building requiring a flashlight)......

Now where's that pilots license, is air support legal for IDPA, LOL!

Keep the cards and letters comming guys!

[revchuck]

Now where's that pilots license, is air support legal for IDPA, LOL!

I am so ready for this interpretation...I used to be an artillery forward observer...

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Check PM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hope the fax didn't wake you up I am off to a match.

[Joe D]

I think state matches should have a high round count. Sometimes match directors forget that people come to shoot. I have never heard anyone say, "Boy, I hated that match. I had to shoot way too many rounds." I think state level matches should also be a little more difficult than the typical local match.

Secondly IDPA is not, let me repeat, not training. It is just a game. If IDPA is supposed to mirror real life then we would have 4-6 round stages. I remember a match announcement email I received a few years back that ended by saying bring 26 rounds. Did I drive the 60 miles to shoot a 26 round match? Yeah, right.

Our last Alabama State match required 175 rounds to shoot. Several of the stages had more than one way in which they could be shot. Many stages required 18 rounds. There were lots of movers and movement.

I do not care for "Standards". I do not understand why some match directors feel the need to have them. If I wanted to stand in one place and shoot a limited number of rounds I would start shooting Bullseye again. Then again I think the Classifier is a total waste of time. I see too many "Paper Masters" that shoot the Classifier over and over again to become a Master and shoot at best in the middle of the Experts in matches. We need to get rid of the Classifier and have a Classifier stage in every local match. I know that will sound too IPSC for some. Are you listening Bill??? Heck, I will be happy to design the 20-30 Classifier stages needed for you. Give me a $1 a head and I will even keep up with the data base.

[rwmagnus]

Check PM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hope the fax didn't wake you up I am off to a match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never heard it but it came through in great shape. I emailed you my contact info regarding your offer. I like the idea of a charging No Shoot I was planning to make it a threat target but I like so I'll plan to use both.

Have a good match. I shot an ugly one yesterday not sure where my head was, LOL.

Ralph

[f250sd]

Good stages, Good SO's, and no bottle necks. I think if you are able to create what Ken Reed posted, you would have a really great match.

I'm really looking forward to it. By the way, what is a good hotel to stay at?

"RW,

For me it boils down to five things.... in my limited experience.

1) Not just shooting, but Memorable Shooting.

Shooters ought to be talking about the unique stages of your match for years to come. To me this also means the stages need to be hard, and fun, and leave you with the feeling that you'd like to try it again. I personally like scenario stages. After all this is a sport about self defense shooting. Tell the shooter how they got into this mess, and what options they have to save their butt. A well written scenario can make it make sense to move between two areas of cover, or charge an adversary. I like charger, rocking, disappearing, flop up then down, and drop turner targets to aid in making the stage more real. I like wall props to make the targets visible only when they need to be shot.

2) Good organization.

As a counter example, it doesn't make much sense to put a map of where to park in a packet, when the shooter has already had to guess where to park and where to go to pickup up the packet. The match should flow smoothly, and be well thought out. That means thinking about everything the shooter is going to have to do starting with when he/she enters the gate, and ends when they leave the gate. This means a lot of planning and organization.

3) Friendliness.

Everyone should make every shooter feel at home.

4) Fair and consistent officiating. Not Santa Clause, and not Hitler, just friendly SOs that know their stuff and that can make you feel glad they gave you the procedural you earned. If any SOs apply that have poor people skills, please pass on them, and let them run water, or something else.

5) A dedicated photographer.

I'd like to see at least 500 photos of everyone and every aspect of the match posted on the host club's website for a sanctioned match. This means getting someone to take pix during the staff's shooting and during the contestant's shooting, not just some guy that is shooting and carries a pocket camera with him. A bonus is being able to buy a video of the match, like NWPPA did for a couple of years. Here again, a dedicated vidoegrapher, not someone part time.

Hope this helps ! ! !

Ken Reed"

[Jane]

Good stages, Good SO's, and no bottle necks.  I think if you are able to create what Ken Reed posted, you would have a really great match.

I'm really looking forward to it.  By the way, what is a good hotel to stay at?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I drove down for their regional last year, I stayed at an Econo Lodge on S. Euclid. IIRC, it was about a 5 mile drive to the range. There's also a Motel 6 in Chino.

If you're looking for something high class, though, I'm the wrong one to ask.

Jane

[Clay1]

Jane, it's been a while (warning completely off topic) but I stayed in a Hotel 6 years ago and when it was time to go out for the evening I couldn't get out of my room. Seems like someone tried to break into the room and jimmied the door so badly that it wouldn't open from the inside. I called the front desk and they didn't believe me. I don't like getting locked up in small places and told the clerk that if they didn't get me out soon I was taking the chair and busting out the window. They didn't think that I was joking any longer. They opened the door and then said they fixed it. I said no way, I need a different room. Last stay ever at a Hotel 6. They are probably fine, but Once bitten ...

Rick

[Angus Hobdell]

asuming your are talking about Norco. just came back from there, stayed up near the airport. Onatrio we stayed at the Marriott Residence very nice. About 15 20 mins too range

[rwmagnus]

f250sd sorry been traveling last couple days and missed your post. I'll get back to you on hotel info. Ontario, CA is just north of the range and since it's near the airport every level of hotel is available. There are others but let me check with the guy coordinating this info this weekend. I'll get back to you.

[vincent]

Quality, innovative stages are the biggest factor to me.

Try to avoid stages based on the same old stuff. For example, I'm very bored with stages built around either of these two over used frameworks:

1) "Engage T1-T3 with 2 shots each in tactical priority while moving to cover and then from cover engage T4-T6 with 2 shots each in tactial priority."

2) "Engage T1-T3 with 2 shots each in tactical sequence while retreating to cover and then from cover engage T4-T6 with 2 shots each in tactial priority."

Stages that use props to guide the shooter toward the "intent" of the stage designer. There should be no question of when or where you can do what. If you don't want it to happen then setup the stage so it can't happen. This takes extra time but it cuts down on walkthrough questions and judgement calls.

One of the best things that one of our local clubs did was to create an "electric eye" activator that can be used to trip movers and other dynamic stage items. This activator trips when you go through the invisible beam which makes things seem like they are "just happening".

-Edited to replace "tactical order" with "tactical priority" per the Glossary of the new rulebook.