dirtypool40 Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 OK, I know there are threads about them breaking down or being flimsy or not holding zero, back three years ago. But I am looking at them right now as an alternative to the obligatory C-More. I have my first Open gun, it's a shorty Bedell and I love it. That being said I am a die hard Limited / standard guy and I can find a low mounted Optima type site much faster. I am thinking seriously about ordering another open gun, shorty 9mm with the Doctor. Can anyone save me from myself???? I hear I will lose the dot in cycle, I do that anyway, and isn't this just a matter of timing drills? Are any solid M / GM shooters using this platform? I know of Taran, and I hear rumors of TGO. I hate ice skating uphill and if it just won't work I wanna know before I spend all the cash. Will the newer ones last and hold zero? Is Gramms the only one doing the low mount / double power mods? What other considerations am I missing? Thanks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I see your reasoning behind it but I also don't think it is that big of a deal as in my case I can retrain myself to shoot a C-More or iron sights very quickly. The only difference is holding the gun an inch or two higher. Docter pros No interference with ejection Don't need to worry about the difference between bore and sight cons Unreliable in the past...haven't seen anything to change my opinion of that yet small field of view sight moves with slide I personally would never use a docter just for the field of view aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 16, 2005 Author Share Posted May 16, 2005 I also like that I can use the same gunhandling by instinct that I use for the iron sited guns, ie no racker, and the handling on those I've played with seems to be more in line with what I feel with my standard guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 The Docter won't lose windage adjustment due to the locking screws. I don't think the Jpoint thas the locking option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dean Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 hey dirtypool, i have an sv built with the doctor and I love the platform. I have two c-more guns but want to move tho the platform. The doctor is the way to go, but IT MUST BE REBUILT BY GRAMS ENGINEERING, otherwise it will break as stated in other threads. I just shot the area 6 match with beven Grams who uses this platform exclusively and it is the way to go especially when moving from limited. I am a Master Open shooter and I feel this is the best platform for many reasons which I will not get into now. Take care/..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 16, 2005 Author Share Posted May 16, 2005 Dean, pm or email me please, I would love to hear more personal exp with the JPOINT / DR. series of sights. Does Grams still do this? I hit his site just now and couldn't find anything about it. If so, how long and how much, ie is it in the ball park of a C-more and mount. How would I do it? Build the gun and then send it to him? Thanks and keep the input coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Just call Beven. If his wife answers say you have a question for Beven and often she'll get him on the line. It's a really bright dot, indoors and out - that's his modification. I've only had mine for one shooting session - I was too chicken to shoot it at Area 6 with only that one session - more for the recoil and noise aspect. I'll update this asap. The Rob Leatham part is no rumor - just scroll down to my question on "Ask Rob" from April: ASK ROB What Beven told me [he's now a Docter distributor] is that the design has improved from Gen1 to Gen3 but the quality control is still iffy. That's where Beven comes in. 375 bucks total for a brand new, bulletproof, bright dot Docter. His low-mount method is definitely the best right now. That adds to the 375. BTW I have 1150 rounds of Hirtenberger +P+ 9mm ammo that only goes 159pf in my gun but may make Major in your gun. Maybe we can go to the same match [orlando, frostproof, ruskin] and I'll hand you a box of 50 to try & chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 eric, there is a pm waiting for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 Thanks guys this is the kind of stuff I need to hear. Tom, good to hear from you bud, thanks for the PM. Dan sent me pics of somthing that looks amazingly like what I am talking about. Caspian28, if I get home for meetings next month I'll look you up. Right now I am stuck "down South jukin". Little Skynard there for the FL boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 The scope looks like it's sitting on something ? The one that I have from Beven sits lower than that. The dot ends up less than 1cm from the top of the comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 yeah, it's just what he sent me in response to my questions. That's my gun though, "mas o menos". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 The scope looks like it's sitting on something ? The one that I have from Beven sits lower than that. The dot ends up less than 1cm from the top of the comp. It is probably sitting on top of a mount, which is then attached to the rear sight cut on the slide. I've seen people mount the Optima/JPoint and/or Docter directly to the slide too. Maybe that's how Beven does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 yeah Beven mounts directly to the slide. He mills out a chunk of metal and leaves 6 posts sticking up. Two in the middle are used by the screw holes and the four on the outside lock into the four holes (one in each corner of the scope). The advantage to this is that when you remove the scope to change the battery it goes back on the slide in exactly the same place. No need to zero it afterwards. it's really well done....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercomp9 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 OK all this talk about mr Grams work.. I know I should call him personally and ask but I work from 5-5 and it is hard to get a call out.. What kind of price range does he charge for the lowering and mounting of the Docters... I have looked all over the site and he does not have it posted... if some one knows send me a PM or just post what it had cost them to have it mounted on there slide... Thanks SuperComp9 `;}~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 I have looked all over the site and he does not have it posted... if some one knows send me a PM or just post what it had cost them to have it mounted on there slide... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sent you a PM because I only know the Glock charge. A little sad to report that with the Glock, once it's sighted in, it no longer leaves the slide visible under the dot. BUT - I have a new way of presenting the gun based on my own accidents/experiments and then also talking to guys who've taken Grauffel's training course. Out-then-up: Goes against most teaching but it works. Shows a complete sight picture just below the target, right before you get the dot up ONTO the target. I like it. I always thought Matt McLearn was crazy doing that in 1993 but then he did win the Nationals and the World Shoot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 ok, so some body tell ME what it costs and how to get a hold of the man.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDELLCUSTOM Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 i've built a few guns for customers with Dr. sight and they seem to like it. i personally don't think that it's the way to go. i mounted one on my own gun that i use for testing new parts and i did not like it at all. i found the field of view too small and with the small viewing area the temporary loss of the dot during the cycling of the gun,with a larger lens like the c-more or oko, the dot never leaves the lens. i also noticed that the lens on the Dr. slightly magnifies the target. i could be wrong but i haven't seen any top shooters using this setup in a major match and winning with it. i think if this was the way to go you would see alot more them and maybe you will but i'm not convinced yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 yeah, this is just one of those discussions. I am definately waiting until I get my eye back and get the current gun broke in right proper, before I change set ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDELLCUSTOM Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 eric, obviously the best thing for anyone to do is to shoot a Dr. sight pistol and compare it to your current sight. the opinions you receive on this issue are just that, opinions. the decision is best made by the individual as to what suits them the best. good luck in your research on this topic and keep me informed as to any conclusions you come to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dean Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 DirtyPool, The cost from Beven is $200 to cut the slide. The other cost involved is for Beven to MODIFY the Doctor sight to make it bullet proof and brighter. On my gun, this works and looks amazing.. I ONLY Reccomend BEVEN for this being that he is the only one with experience doing this. IF you have any questions please email me immediately... dmakkos@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dean Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Dirtypool, forgot to mention, the cost of rebuilding the doctor is $100. If you decide to go this way, PLEASE make sure you talk to Beven, he as tremendous experience with this. I HIGHLY recomend him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGE Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 dirtypool40 and supercomp9, normal business hours for me are 8 to 8 Monday thru Friday, PST. So finding time to call me should not be a problem. I will even answer the phone on the weekends if I am not out at the range or with the family. If you do not get a person on the phone, leave a message. There is alot of info about my business that is not on my website, so just ask. Emails work too, but if the questions get long, I will not take the time to type out a long response. Usually, your detailed questions will cause me to have questions, and the typing just goes on and on. What do I think about the Docter Sight, and why do I use it? I think it is one of the best "slide mounted red dot sights" we have today, as far as design is concerned. I use it because it can be mounted so low on a 1911 slide, that I can see the top of the slide, the target, and the dot on the target all at the same time. Your draw height between iron sights and the Docter is the same. Unfortantly, Glocks do not have the same barrel lock angle as the 1911, so you will not have the benifit of seeing the top of the slide while aiming, as caspian28r pointed out on his gun. Is the Docter Sight reliable, and bright enough? In factory form? No and no, but it can be fixed to be very reliable and bright, (on one battery). As I stated before, the design of the Docter is good. Aluminum body, and a glass lens. This means it will not distort if the hold down screws are too tight, and the lense is clear and distortion free, and will not scratch as easy as plastic. The point of aim adjustments are accurate and once adjusted there are locking screws to hold the adjustment. The Docter sights suffer from poor assembly practices at the factory. All the problems of wires coming loose, diodes coming loose, battery contacts breaking are eliminated once I disassemble the sight completely, and reattach all the parts that come loose or break. While I am inside the unit I also modify the light brightness sensor tunnel so the dot will run as bright or brighter then if you had a dual battery set up. Why don't the Top shooters use the Docter? The whole Docter/JPoint/Optima slide mounted sight system has be used for years, and torn apart by there reliabily problems. No one has been able to make these types of sight systems last as long as the other red dot "heads up/tube scopes. Until now. I think the concept of the Docter sight is great, and I think it will work for alot of people. The Top shooters can shoot anything they put into their hands, very well. They also are driven by sponsors to use certain types, and also have their preferances. Alot of the top shooter did go to the Optima sight system years ago, but we all know about its problems, and we saw the trend go away. Once reliability can be proven, I'm sure more top shooter will come look at the Docter sight system. How much does it cost? I have made it a practice to not quote prices in the general forums, so give me a call. I will sell you new "bullet proofed, extra bright", or if you have a sight already,(working or not) I will updated your unit with my mods for a moderate cost. I can machine your slide with my "6 pin locating system". I can remachine most slides that have already been cut for a "slide mounted sight", but of coarse will need to see the slide first before I can determin a cost. I do not use or recommend any of the "duel battery mounts". It is not needed for brightness and they mount the sight too high on the slide. Most of the time the duel battery connections cause reliabilty issues, and the plastic spacer will flex enough to change zero if you tighten the hold down screws too much. My machining and mounting design allows the bottom of the scope to be .025" over the firing pin tunnel, so it can't be any lower, and as BrittinUSA as pointed out, my pin locator system allows for the Docter to be taken of the slide and remounted without loss of zero. With my gun equipment, I have a spare Docter that has already been mounted on the gun, sighted in, then removed and stored in my spare parts bag. If, for any reason, I need or want to change the sight I have on my gun, I can install my spare Docter, in the middle of a match, and go shoot the next stage, and not worry about my zero. I don't know of any other sight system out there, that will be allow this. Caspian28r has some pictures of the machine work I do that I sent him, in a post about his Open Glock gun, (sorry I don't have the link right now). I can also email these picture directly if you contact me. Someday my website will be filled with this kind of info, but that takes time too, which is something very hard to come by these days, if you take notice of my normal business hours. People who know me, understand this. I hope this post answners most of the questions that have come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 Beven, thanks, awesome post, answering a lot of what I was after. I sent an email to the address from your website, but you answered all my questions but the actual cost. PM me with it if you like, I will not post it openly. I will also try to call. I'm looking into sending you a slide with no milling on the rear and letting you work your magic. I'll need the site, bullet proofing, upgrades and mounting. I may be interested in buying a second site as a backup. Again thanks a bunch. es. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Here's some pics If anyone knows where I can get grey skateboard tape, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 I've seen grey skateboard tape at our local hardware store, they also sell the clear stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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