titegroup 9mm major

[barebones1]

hello all, coming up on my 1 year anniversary in shooting sports. lots of idpa match's and more recently more uspsa match's. Started with g34 to shoot both. went to a Kimber 1911 for idpa and a tanfoglio limited in 40 s&w for uspsa, love the tanfog. so I have acquired a kkm /carver combo and c-more/carver combo for the now shelved g34. I would like to try some major loads in a barebones open gun. ( range time only ,no match) I have plenty of titegroup. I tried 5.5 over 124 and the comp seemed to work ok, showed no signs of primer stress. In hindsight this babe in the woods approach is dangerous to say the least. I was wondering if anyone would share a "starting Major load" with me ? ( installed the c-more) and itching to try it out. thanks in advance

cheers

[ChuckS]

hello all, coming up on my 1 year anniversary in shooting sports. lots of idpa match's and more recently more uspsa match's. Started with g34 to shoot both. went to a Kimber 1911 for idpa and a tanfoglio limited in 40 s&w for uspsa, love the tanfog. so I have acquired a kkm /carver combo and c-more/carver combo for the now shelved g34. I would like to try some major loads in a barebones open gun. ( range time only ,no match) I have plenty of titegroup. I tried 5.5 over 124 and the comp seemed to work ok, showed no signs of primer stress. In hindsight this babe in the woods approach is dangerous to say the least. I was wondering if anyone would share a "starting Major load" with me ? ( installed the c-more) and itching to try it out. thanks in advance

cheers

What did your chrono say about that 5.5 gr load?

[tyler2you]

Titegroup isn't going to be ideal for working the comp on your gun. It's a fast powder and the charge weights are typically low. You want lots of slow burning powder to keep pressures safe and work the comp. If you're truly looking to make Major Power Factor (165), I I don't think TG will get you there. Save the TG for minor loads and find some HS-6, Winchester Autocomp, or another slow burning powder for the major loads.

[blairmckenzie1]

Not a good idea. Hodgdon lists max for 124 @ 4.1 which is fairly conservative, but 5.5 is getting up there. TG is too fast to be a viable Major powder. Look towards 3N37, HS6, AutoComp and Shilouette. Always work up to Major.

[Open1215]

There are many much better powders suited for 9 major. Hs6 is great! Autocomp and CFE are popular as well. Major cannot be safely reached with just any powder. You will get much better performance and "safty" with a slower powder as well

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[barebones1]

thank guys,

Greatly appreciated! that was what I was beginning to realize, after 4 hours of reading the threads on here. I will shop some powders.

[XMIKE]

If you are like me and intend on reloading 9mm Luger brass then this is important.

SAAMI Cartridge Pressures are key with 9mm Major, here's the quick math.

For 9mm Luger the SAAMI Maximum Cartridge pressure is 35,000 psi and at that pressure the max 124gr velocity in a stock 5.31" (Glock 34) is 1,362 ft/sec for a PF of 169...

At 1,335 ft/sec the SAAMI cartridge/barrel pressure is 33,606 psi and works out to a PF of 165. If you shoot IPSC where Major is 160PF that works out to 1300 ft./sec actually 161PF with a SAAMI Pressure of 31,867 psi.

HS6 will get you there with an OAL of 1.150" and loads between 7.5 and 7.9... Note - 8.0 gr. is too hot with SAAMI pressures >36,000 psi. Start at 7.3 gr. and work up from there.

Also try a ported barrel for better control, I run a Wolf 4 port and I find it to be excellent in my Gen 4 34.

[superdude]

If you are like me and intend on reloading 9mm Luger brass then this is important.

SAAMI Cartridge Pressures are key with 9mm Major, here's the quick math.

For 9mm Luger the SAAMI Maximum Cartridge pressure is 35,000 psi and at that pressure the max 124gr velocity in a stock 5.31" (Glock 34) is 1,362 ft/sec for a PF of 169...

At 1,335 ft/sec the SAAMI cartridge/barrel pressure is 33,606 psi and works out to a PF of 165. If you shoot IPSC where Major is 160PF that works out to 1300 ft./sec actually 161PF with a SAAMI Pressure of 31,867 psi.

HS6 will get you there with an OAL of 1.150" and loads between 7.5 and 7.9... Note - 8.0 gr. is too hot with SAAMI pressures >36,000 psi. Start at 7.3 gr. and work up from there.

Also try a ported barrel for better control, I run a Wolf 4 port and I find it to be excellent in my Gen 4 34.

Where are you getting your pressure values from and with what powders? Please cite your resource.

[XMIKE]

superdude

You can download an xls spread sheet from Close Focus Research www.closefocusreaserch.com, credit to the developer Sam Rahab. It's called "Calculating Barrel Pressure and Projectile Velocity in Gun Systems" and it is the best resource I have found for doing these calcs.

The SAAMI pressures are SAAMI pressures www.saami.org no need to say more.

As far as doing the math is concerned start with the barrel length as published for your firearm, then use the max. SAAMI pressure for the cartridge, that will lead you to the calculated fps...

Power Factor PF is projectile weight x fps divided by 1000. The actual loads shown are the ones that I have used and chronographed using HS6, 9mm brass, 124 Cam-Pro FCP (Full Copper Plated) RN and my Caldwell Precision Premium Crono. If you choose to use same that's totally up to you,

[superdude]

That's nice, but I don't see where one enters the type of gunpowder used or its charge weight. These are required, along with OAL, bullet length, etc. to estimate pressure.

[XMIKE]

Actually if you have Projectile Weight, Bore diameter, Barrel Length and Projectile Velocity you don't need anything else to determine Barrel Pressure. We didn't address the question of Projectile Energy yet, so lets drag that in as well, all of the above can used to calculate it as well.

If I want a Projectile Velocity of 1,300/fps I can choose many different charges, OAL and even argue some case for hard or soft, Pistol or Rifle primers to get there. For the sake of the above physics none of that matters.

As noted in the chain above, what has worked to get me into that 1,300 ft/sec.and plus range is Hogdon HS6 at loads of 7.5 to 7.9gr. OAL 1.150 at an elev. 2490 ft...

Once again these are my loads and no has to, or is expected to try them.

If you have supported reference information that says the calculations I posted are out to lunch feel free to correct me.

I'm always interested in being educated by knowledgeable people.

[superdude]

Actually, you do need more information to estimate peak chamber pressure. You can’t assume that all gunpowders are the same. You can’t assume that all gunpowders produce the same pressure for the same velocity. That’s what your spreadsheet does.

Different gunpowders produce different pressure for the same velocity. One gunpowder might make your desired velocity at safe pressure, while a different gunpowder might be at shockingly dangerous pressure. In line with this, different gunpowders produce different velocities for the same pressure.

The proof for this is in, well, every loading manual that has even been published.

Look at any load manual where they show pressure. For example, the Hodgdon online manual shows in the 9mm Luger that with a 125 grain Sierra FMJ bullet that IMR PB produces 974 fps at 33,500 psi. Hodgdon Longshot produces 1,162 fps at 33,400 psi. Longshot pushes the same bullet 188 fps faster for slightly less pressure. Imagine how high the pressure would be if you tried to push the velocity with PB to the same high velocity of Longshot. Another manual that shows pressure is the Western Powders manual. Look it over, too.

Look at any load manual where they show velocity. With the reasonable assumption that they stop their load data when the powder has neared its max pressure limit for that cartridges, you’ll note that there are usually only a couple of the powders that produce the highest velocity. That’s because the other powders reached their max pressure limit in that cartridge at lower velocities.

You also need to consider OAL. In most instances, pushing the bullet deeper (in pistol cartridges) raises pressure. Without knowing what the OAL length is, the pressure estimate is not valid.

Perhaps you have heard of the Software QuickLOAD. It uses all these parameters to estimate pressure. You might want to look it over. By the way, I plugged your values into QuickLOAD and this is what I got:

9mm Luger 124 grain Speer TMJ bullet at 1.150” OAL with 7.9 grains of HS-6 = 62,248 psi.

All software programs ESTIMATE pressure and are no substitute for actual data from a qualified test lab.

[Open1215]

What carver comp did you end up with? Is it the 3 port or 4?

I had the 3 port comp on a glock 22 with a 40/9 barrel. I really liked 3n38 for that comp.

Side by side in a different gun I noticed no difference between hs6 and 3n38 at the same pf. It may be a bit different but with the glock mags slightly limiting oal I would really recommend Hs-6

Enjoy open!

I would also recommend barrel ports if possible. Perhaps 3 holes at 90° would be nice.

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[XMIKE]

Open1215

I only run a 4 port Wolf barrel and no comp. on the Glock 34. I like the Carver comp and I would definitely consider it on a different set up.

superdude

If you have a barrel pressure of 62,248 psi pushing a 124 gr. projectile that equates to a velocity of 1,817 fps in a Glock 34 with a 5.31" barrel... My crono's were no where near that, they were as expected above 1,300 fps.

This is Newtons second law of motion, F=ma. If the mass of an object is held constant, increasing force will increase acceleration.

[Open1215]

Sorry xmike I was asking the OP. They mentioned a KKM barrel and carver comp

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[superdude]

superdude

If you have a barrel pressure of 62,248 psi pushing a 124 gr. projectile that equates to a velocity of 1,817 fps in a Glock 34 with a 5.31" barrel... My crono's were no where near that, they were as expected above 1,300 fps.

This is Newtons second law of motion, F=ma. If the mass of an object is held constant, increasing force will increase acceleration.

Velocity is not as important as pressure. Velocity can and will vary for a variety of reasons. Besides, you're assuming that spreadsheet is giving you the correct pressure and velocity. How can it when it does not indicate which powder is used, or how much. Without that information, how can any of its output be trusted? It can't.

One huge problem with that spreadsheet is that it makes the wrong assumption that it does not matter which gunpowder you use. That could not be more wrong. Every load manual proves it wrong. Every one. And the load manuals back up their data by having tested it with pressure test equipment used in controlled conditions presumably under the guidelines set out by SAAMI.

Hornady's manual shows a max load of HS-6 with a 124 grain bullet as 5.9 grains. The Speer manual shows a max of 6.7 grains of HS-6. They're probably running that close to max pressure for 9mm, as that is what most load manuals do. What is the pressure of your 7.9 grain load?

[XMIKE]

Based on my crono 1,362 fps and back calculating the pressure it's at 35,000 psi for 7.9 gr. of HS6. I have no way to measure pressure other than a calculator or a spread sheet.

If we were to say the projectile looses "x" amount of velocity before it breaks the crono,, I could understand that. However I believe that it would only be incremental.

At this point I would say it's a great science experiment for someone, thanks for digging into the manuals and responding. As with any new load we all need to do our homework.

[superdude]

So you're using measured velocity to estimate pressure? So I guess if I used N310 and it took X.x grains to reach 1,362 fps, it would also be producing 35,000 psi? Is that right?

If so, that means that all gunpowders produce the same pressure for the same velocity. That's what I get from how you make you calculations.

[XMIKE]

You know as well as I know that not all gun powder is created equal or has the same application.

I'm saying is that to make over 1,300 fps I need 7.5 to 7.9gr. of HS6 and I estimate the barrel pressure to be within 31,867 to 35,000 psi... That's all, I told you how I determined barrel pressure using science and you want to go on and on.

If you prefer another powder or you don't believe 9 Major is possible or safe with any powder, please cut to the chase.

[superdude]

I'm trying to understand the spreadsheet and your method of calculations. It appears that you, and the spreadsheet, use bullet weight, barrel length and velocity to estimate pressure. And nothing else. Is that correct or not? This is a yes or no question.

[XMIKE]

Correct

[superdude]

Thank you. Then it means that it does not matter which gunpowder you use. Any gunpowder that produces 1,362 fps, with the same barrel length and bullet weight (in this example with 9mm) will also produce 35,000 psi. That's how the spreadsheet works.

Unfortunately that isn't true.

[barebones1]

What carver comp did you end up with? Is it the 3 port or 4?

I had the 3 port comp on a glock 22 with a 40/9 barrel. I really liked 3n38 for that comp.

Side by side in a different gun I noticed no difference between hs6 and 3n38 at the same pf. It may be a bit different but with the glock mags slightly limiting oal I would really recommend Hs-6

Enjoy open!

I would also recommend barrel ports if possible. Perhaps 3 holes at 90° would be nice.

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4 and a kkm barrel. Modified the Gen 4/34 with the beaver tail back strap to fit the carver magwell.

Actually if you have Projectile Weight, Bore diameter, Barrel Length and Projectile Velocity you don't need anything else to determine Barrel Pressure. We didn't address the question of Projectile Energy yet, so lets drag that in as well, all of the above can used to calculate it as well.

If I want a Projectile Velocity of 1,300/fps I can choose many different charges, OAL and even argue some case for hard or soft, Pistol or Rifle primers to get there. For the sake of the above physics none of that matters.

As noted in the chain above, what has worked to get me into that 1,300 ft/sec.and plus range is Hogdon HS6 at loads of 7.5 to 7.9gr. OAL 1.150 at an elev. 2490 ft...

Once again these are my loads and no has to, or is expected to try them.

If you have supported reference information that says the calculations I posted are out to lunch feel free to correct me.

I'm always interested in being educated by knowledgeable people.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Open1215]

Barebones looks good! I think you will really like hs6! Lots of gas and it's not as bulky or pricy as 3n38. A bit dirty but it's almost 1/2 the price of u get 8 lbs

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[MemphisMechanic]

You know as well as I know that not all gun powder is created equal or has the same application.

I told you how I determined barrel pressure using science and you want to go on and on.

You used bad science.

And your first scentence proves you wrong.

You calculations specify how much pressure needs to exist behind the bullet at the beginning of the bullet's travel in order to reach X velocity in Y distance, to make things simple.

The problem with your math is that the pressure behind the bullet is never constant during the firing cycle.

Fast burning titegroup / N310 / Clays give a short, intense push and their spiky nature means pressures breach SAAMI specs long before you get a 124 to major velocities. Little to no gas remains for the comp to use to control recoil - little muzzle blast because most of the gas pressure is gone before the bullet breeches the end of the barrel.

Slower burning ones like HS-6 give you less intense push... for a longer period of time. A lower pressure inside the barrel. For longer.

That is what you are missing.

.

Edited May 26, 2016 by MemphisMechanic