Sweeping Dq's.... Sucks But...

[Rush]

Just wanted to ask...

The stage design was such that the shooter started with a gun in his weak hand... , condition 2.... on beep.. run and place bag on top of a low table (about knee level) and engage as visible...

So beep, draw gun, gun in front about waist level, place bag on low table and "STOP!"... give RO evil look .. but unloaded and showed clear... Got called for sweeping my left hand while placing the bag on the low table

There was video footage... but it was behind me (my 5 o'clock) so it could only see my arm positions but not the muzzle and the weak hand holding the bag... kinda inconclusive...

Now note that this is my PURELY MY point of view.. and not the RO's... I don't think I swept myself placing the bag on the table.. I could have.. and i couldnt have.. its debatable... and since i didn't feel it important enough... i let it stand... as the video was to debatable.

but later, while reviewing the video with the RO concerned and the Range Master (unofficially)... I asked how do you arbitrate when the only two people to witness the "sweep" was the RO and the shooter? The answer I got was that if upon review of the evidence/witnesses that the possibility exists.. then the DQ stands..

Is that a correct position for a match DQ? the mere possibility? vs. a 100% certainty? For future reference on my part really as this is all past now...

Now a DQ for an AD, 180, dropped gun... that's 100%. But against a mere possibility that i could have swept myself? RO call with no witnesses... how do you manage those?

Comments very appreciated...

[Jim Norman]

Sweeping:

As general rule can be hard to call exactly due to the angle involved, but if the RO is experianced and he thinks you did from his point of view, then it is fairly likely that you did in fact sweep yourself.

We had a stage last week with a push open port. Several shooters opened the port and from where I was standing, if I were less experianced I would have said they swept. However, judging the angles I decided that while closer than I like, They were most likely in the clear.

After the ULSC, I talked to each about the proper positioning of their muzzle vs their hand so that they would not be so close and so that they would not get a DQ in the future if the RO were standing a few inches to the side.

Sometimes a sweep is easy, the shooter obviously has crossed his arm at about the elbow level, or opeing a door, the angles are such that there is no way that the gun and hand did not cross, other times it is more subtle or as in the inncident above, if the shooter is a couple steps ahead of the RO, the RO may be judging the angles from the rear, not actually seeing the bag and the muzzle. This to me would be a bad call.

The RO should actually SEE the sweep, not just assume it occurred.

My opinon of course.

Jim

[Gary Stevens]

Rule 8.2.3 states you can not start with the gun in your hand, so if I understand your original statement, the course was illegal to begin with.

I'll speak generally here, since I don't know the specifics of your situation. RO's are taught, at least by me, that you don't make calls based on what you "think" you saw. You make calls based on what you "know" you saw. So if the word "possibility" entered into this conversation, it has no place there.

Rule 11.1.2 says you can not challenge the commission of the infraction involving a safety issue, only that exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration. This makes it imparative that the RO only make calls on what they are sure they observed.

Also US 11.1.5 disallows the use of photo or video evidence.

[ong45]

Judgement calls always hurt more, i DQed out of area 2 a couple of years ago due to a 180 call. Most of my squad mates claimed BS and that i should arbitrate the matter.

In the end i left it alone. I figure i gotta trust the ro to do his/her job but it sure sucked to walk away, btw it was my first match DQ since i started (1997)

James

[XRe]

In my experience, we tend to point the gun at the things we're looking at. Or, we tend to lose focus on muzzle direction when we're focusing on something else. Both of these can lead to sweeps. Either you're focused on that door knob, or whatever, and you sweep the weak hand while going for it (cause the muzzle's pointed at where you're focused), or you end up sweeping somewhere else on your arm because you lost track of the muzzle while trying to do something else complicated.

I make a point in my walkthrough and in blocking out the stage to keep both hands on completely different planes whenever possible - gun well above the weak hand, pointed straight downrange - and I pick out a point that I can focus at quickly to point the muzzle at before proceeding with whatever action I have to follow with the weak hand. This works almost all the time. Where it doesn't, I keep them on a different vertical plane, and never allow my arms to cross - and do the rest the same.

Worse than DQing, I don't ever want the possibility of putting a hole in myself - it'd be embarrassing as hell, would hurt like hell, and I might not be able to play this game anymore, if I did enough damage But, in being sure to protect myself, I make it painfully obvious that I'm not sweeping myself, either, without slowing myself down.

Video can definitely be deceptive - angles look wierd, and distances get compressed with a telephoto setting on the lens (typical for shooting video of shooting). Its not admissable, as Gary says, but when reviewing these things later, keep that in mind...

Unfortunately, you can't really arbitrate a bad call on a safety issue - the RO is taken to be correct that he saw you sweep (11.1.2 that Gary mentions - correct me if I'm wrong on that interpretation, Gary ). You have to prove that it wasn't unsafe in that circumstance (which you won't). Thus why ROs are encouraged to only call what they *know* they saw, vs. what they think they saw....

[sfinney]

A couple good shooters were DQ'ed for sweeping at Area 4 last year.... arbitrated (I think based on video evidence), and won, reinstated. I wasn't aware you could arbitrate a safety call.... So evidently it's not black and white...

[Matthew_Mink]

A couple good shooters were DQ'ed for sweeping at Area 4 last year.... arbitrated (I think based on video evidence), and won, reinstated. I wasn't aware you could arbitrate a safety call.... So evidently it's not black and white... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually the arbitrations were based on bad RO'ing, not a safety issue. It was proven that the RO who "saw" the sweeping, couldn't even see the shooters hands, due to the fact that he was about 15 yards away and behind the shooters in both cases with the CRO holding the timer in between. I had a front row seat to Phil Strader's run, and he did not sweep himself, it wasn't even close. Angus's sweeping was apparently called while he was reaching back toward the key, and the gun was pointed the other way, almost spread-eagled. That one was a comical call. I saw that one from behind almost 30 yards away and it was apparent even from back there that there was no physical way you could sweep yourself in that position.

[Rush]

Thanks... all very helpful... For my peace of mind at least and to keep the sport and safety in perspective... But, i sure sucked to walk away from that DQ...

the RO who made the call was positioned to my left, my 8 o clock, about 3 yds back. I was arguing with him a little on it cause his angle was such that I dont think he could clearly see my hands... now if he had been on my right... that would have been more credible as he could clearly see my hands... the RO with the timer couldn't see my hands as he was behind me (5'oclock) so he didn't make the call... that's where the discussion on "possibility and probability" came up..

I guess nobody's happy with a DQ call that's not 100% conclusive... Its my first match DQ in since i began this sport in 2003... it'll be something i'll always be thinking about now.. and making damn sure the guns pointed far away next time besides.. walking away really sucked! .. besides, i was in the top 5 of the stage results

The RO is a professional guy.. known him for two years and he's strict but a fair guy.... at the end of the day.. this game is too much fun to have any bad blood between its participants

At least now i know enough to give the next RO and earful

Again, thanks lots for the insights... Safe Shooting all...

[cking]

Sometimes the props we use like doors, and carrying things increase the likelyhood of sweeping. Especially on doors when the opening weakhand has to cross the strong hand. Lefty's will throw Ro's off if they don't adjust before the beep.

We try and remind everybody during the walkthrough and have Ro's in each squad again remind everybody before they start the squad of likely area's for a screw up.

I consider it the Ro's job to help people from screwing up safety stuff. Especially if I Ro'ing a new shooter, I'll gentle remind of area's to be carefull of just before we start.

[sfinney]

Actually the arbitrations were based on bad RO'ing, not a safety issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I agree, from what I heard thats correct. What I meant was anytime someone is DQ'ed for sweeping, I was told that you couldn't arbitrate because you were R.O.ed for a "safety issue", R.O.'s judgement would stand. But the calls were so bad that they were arguable, as it turned out.

[Tom Mainus]

You can arbitrate your way back in on a safety call. FGN's I think 2003. I was dq'ed for sweeping myself going through a door, keep in mind that I am left handed and all the doors at PASA have the knobs on the left.(Come to my club where I make all the props and the knobs are all on the right). Start position was standing in front of door, hands relaxed at sides. Beep, while drawing the gun I open the door, shoot the course of fire, and after I am done their is some commotion with the RO's and CRO's. The CRO was not running me the RO was. The CRO was standing behind both of us. The CRO made the call not the RO. They DQ'ed me for sweeping myself, I was crushed. I couldn't believe it. Dave Skinner was on my squad and he helped me write up the arb form. Thanks Dave. We all thought it was a shaky call, ponied up my 100 bucks and rolled the dice.(whole squad offered to pay the 100 arb fee). In the end I was reinstated for the match, but I was a wreck for the rest of it.

[The Hangin' Chad]

In the end I was reinstated for the match, but I was a wreck for the rest of it.

Due to the new guidelines I'll stay calm on this one.

But I would like to point out that this guy ruined your match on a poor call.

I don't have a problem with the safety rules, in fact I appreciate them, and I do the best I can to follow them.

Atleast in my area, what I've noticed is at the big matches, the RO's that turn out to be of poor quality, don't get invited back the next year.

The bad thing is, of the new batch of RO's that get certified each year (which is a good thing), one poor quality RO seems to show up at that big match the following year.

THC