Double Alpha Dillon powder die 9 mm

[Youngeyes]

FWIW, i periodically wipe the MBF funnel with a cloth that I've soaked with a small amount of lanolin/alcohol mix. It helps out a lot. When it starts sticking again, I just give it a quick wipe. YMMV

[echotango]

Perhaps I misread your post. I thought it would be the same as a 650 which I just had. But your post made it sound like you flared on a different station than the Powder station. I was going to set up just as it was on my 650. Thx

Edited February 23, 2016 by echotango

[rjacobs]

1050 flares(bells) at the swage station using the swage backup rod.

[echotango]

Got it. Thanks

[Jimk60]

This is my experience:

I wet needle clean all my brass. Last year, based on posts from other wet/needle cleaners, I switched my cleaner from Dawn to Wash and Wax (I use Armor All Wash and Wax with Carnuba).

It eliminated the sticking on the powder drop/flaring funnel.

In fact, 2 weeks ago, I sat down to load 40 S&W and they were sticking badly. I realized that the 40 cases had been cleaned prior to my switch to W&W.

I ran them through my tumbler with W&W only, no pins. Dried them. Started loading again. No sticking issues.

[Terry44]

Has anyone had any experience using this funnel with the square deal?

[KevinNY]

Has anyone had any experience using this funnel with the square deal?

Curious as well. A little Imperial Sizing die wax on the expander might help a lot too, slick stuff.

[L8ASUSL]

Funnel works as everyone has said. No more shaving the coating off bullets!

Kev

[forkliftHIFI]

I searched but couldn't find it anywhere but could someone tell me the diameter of the DAA funnel bellow and at the step? I'm not shaving so much as swagging a lot of bullets when I seat them. I already have the stock funnel set to a pretty extreme flare, so much so that the mouth of the case rubs inside the seating die.

[wimms]

forklift,

It's a bad idea to open the case so much. If you think that while opening the case only that part of the case is shaped then reconsider. While opening the case the force transferred works deeper too, the metal tension "turns" over the pivot point and the effect is that case gets tighter below the bell. This leads to higher forces while seating bullet, and whats worse - when you remove the bell, the same pivoting occurs and the case expands slightly away from the base of the bullet, leading to actually less holding force of the bullet. And while being removed, the case first gets even tighter for the bullet. If you seat and remove the bell in the same stage this further increases seating forces.

Think of it this way. The sizer/decap die establishes the bullet holding force. Thats all it has to do there. So there is no point in pushing the die all the way over the case. It's name of "full-size" is a gimmick for 9mm - it can't be done. You only need to size the upper area of the case where the bullet will be seated and holds it.

The bell needs to be only enough for the bullet to go in hand-tight and reach the bullet seating die without flipping over. No more. It should be barely visible at closer look. Less is more in this case.

Seating die should not crimp the case in the same stage. Otherwise shaving is not avoidable and at worst case edge would bind into the bullet and you are in the swage area.

Bell should be removed in the last crimp/resize stage, and not with the stepped edge crimp but true taper crimp sleeve. Otherwise your crimp would be very sensitive to depend on the case height. Range pickups differ enough and you will have inconsistent crimp and bell removal.

I can measure my DAA funnel, but it would be different for you due to tolerances. I can say that my EPRX bullets that measure .3565 go into the case tightly when dropped by the MBF die and stand up right no matter how the press jerks, which is exactly the point of the stepped funnel and why I love it so much.

My advise would be to ease up on the depth you go with your sizer/decap die, reduce the bell to the point where after bullet seating you can barely see a gap between the bullet and the case edge, and use bullets with consistent diameter of caliber .356. And of course get the DAA funnel.

Edited March 31, 2016 by wimms

[forkliftHIFI]

wimms,

I never even considered adjusting the sizing die, I just followed the manual where it said "screw the die down until it just touches the shellplate".

So by using too much sizing die I'm creating a tight necked case, and to overcome this I'm having to overbell, and then winding up with crummy neck tension anyway once that is removed? Meanwhile the bases of my lead projectiles are getting swagged down a few thousands and I'm getting poor accuracy and excessive barrel leading?

Thank you for laying it all out like that wimms it makes a lot of sense now! I was beginning to get discouraged that I might not ever realize the benefits I had read about using these affordable lead projectiles.

Off to adjust the sizing die and see how that affects the rest of the stations. Also ordering a MBF Funnel from Mr. Kozkela

[wimms]

So by using too much sizing die I'm creating a tight necked case, and to overcome this I'm having to overbell, and then winding up with crummy neck tension anyway once that is removed? Meanwhile the bases of my lead projectiles are getting swagged down a few thousands and I'm getting poor accuracy and excessive barrel leading?

Exactly. Counterintuitive isn't it. And it doesn't help that manual seems to apply straight edged case procedures to tapered 9mm.

To tune your sizer die, ease it up until your completed round does not pass test where you take your round, measure its OAL, then push the round against a backstop (table edge for eg) with your body mass and the bullet seats deeper as measured by OAL. That would mean that the neck tension is too low and you should size abit deeper. Bell should be nicely removed while testing as this also adds to bullet holding tension. I use Lee carbide sizer die and it is set at about 5mm above shellplate.

When you get it right I guess you'd also notice cases sticking less to the powder funnel and generally more pleasant smoothness.

[forkliftHIFI]

Ok I set the sizing die to only size down to about the bullet seating depth, then adjusted my bell back to a normal amount, and slowly ran 100 cartridges paying very close attention to what was happening.

As you said everything went MUCH more smoothly, especially the bullet seating, even with VERY minimal flare/bell. Many finished cartridges could have passed plunk test with no additional crimp but this was mixed headstamp range brass and some retained a little extra flare due to brass variations.

I measured some pulled bullets and was still getting very slight swagging of about .001x on the base of the projectile but it was much less pronounced and a smaller length of the bullet was affected. Obviously neck tension has been greatly reduced because before it was sizing the base of the bullet down by about .003 or slightly more.

My Dillon funnel measures .353 and as I understand it the MBF funnel expands to about .355?

I would guess that with the MBF funnel/expander and .356 lead I can probably eliminate the bullet swagging entirely and skip the final crimp. I would also guess it would minimize variation of neck tension using mixed headstamp brass?

Am I thinking on the right track here? Thanks again!

[wimms]

Good to hear. Yes I would say you are on it.

I would like to add that Dillon and all others are making their equipment to cover most of the available components with all their tolerances. As 9mm Luger actually defines bullet size at .3555 and has tolerances even lower, to account for thinnest case wall thickness, Dillon's funnel diameter is probably selected to provide sufficient tension for lowest combination of tolerances. Thats why its .353.

MBF is actually more for people who load 356 bullets, and here's my word of caution that for .355 bullets it might cause excessive expansion. It is basically is undoing the neck resizing in station 1, and doing it quite deep. This again would not affect much people who prefer heavy bullets that are also longer, but for short bullets seated at longer OAL this might cause very little depth where neck tension is holding the bullet. Just have this in mind.

If the bullet shape is changed then there is excessive tension. Perhaps you are trying to seat the bullet too deep? Or could ease up sizer die even more?

In terms of final crimp, it is almost not needed with stock dies that already overtension anyway. But after MBF it is not so anymore. The expanded portion of the case where bullet drops provides almost no neck tension and if there is loose fit clearance at the head the bullet is not centered at firing time. Therefore I would say that taper pass is important.

Anyway, certainly do the "push test" and do not accept the setup that fail it. Otherwise the bullet seating depth can and will change during the firing session and in extreme case you will have a FTF jam during clearing of which you will extract case, bullet and powder all separately from your gun. Has happened to me.

For crimp setup just remember that you do not "crimp" 9mm. Never let the case edge to curve into the bullet. This gives nothing to the bullet holding force, but it wreaks havoc to headspacing, even more so than leaving some bell there.

What you want to do is to uniformly press the case around the bullet, centering it. Lee carbide FCD is doing close and if you don't try to do full-size it will not overdo. But I don't like the crimp sleeve in FCD - it tries to do both taper and actually crimp if allowed to. Taper in it is too loose and not sufficient, and adjusting to reach the crimp causes the inconsistency based on head stamps as I said before.

So I went with quite unconventional solution. I installed 9mm-Makarov Carbide FCD to last station. Unexpectedly it has true taper sleeve and the carbide can be pushed all the way down potentially fixing bulged cases. That sleeve can be purchased separately too if you want to try it in 9mm FCD.

[forkliftHIFI]

Ok update. I got some lead fishing weights Not sure if it was 100% lead but I was able to scratch it with my fingernail through the plastic bag so it was soft.

Factory barrel slugged .357 in the grooves.

Aftermarket threaded barrel was .358

Should I look at getting larger projectiles?

[wimms]

If you are sure you can accurately measure down to a thou then get some and try. Be pragmatic in evaluation, without attachment. If it makes no difference which is quite likely then stick with the size that is most convenient to reload and purchase.

If you go up to 357/358 you will likely need to get other dies aswell.

[GBertolet]

I sometimes load for a 9mm with an oversized bore (.3575), and contacted DAA about their 9mm powder funnel dimensions for the SDB press. I had been loading for this 9 on a single stage press, with a modified 38 special expander, opening the case enough to prevent swaging upon seating using .358 cast bullets. The response I just received from Bjorn at DAA, said the diameter of their 9mm powder die is .358. Since there is usually 1 to 1.5 thou springback in the case, it will leave a .3565 to .357 net result. I think I am going to order one.

[forkliftHIFI]

Sounds good Gbertolet! I actually went ahead and ordered a DAA funnel already which should be here any day. Not knowing the DAA dimensions I also had comissioned another funnel being custom made with the intended diameter of .358 which should be here in a couple weeks. I guess I'll see which works best.

As for bullets I got some acme 147 gr bullets which measured .357 I managed to load some smoothly with the stock dillon funnel depending on headstamp. Some headstamps were too rigid or thick and I couldn't get the bullet to seat without shaving. The ones I did get loaded shot really well from my barrel that slugged .357 I'm guessing they will make for good shooting if the replacement funnel allows for reliable seating.

I'm going to go ahead and try some .358 bullets too and see what works best.

I'll hit both funnels with calipers and try loading some oversized bullets and report back.