gose Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Had my hopes up for Rhino, but it seems like the vaporware they announced some time back is gone for good. Heard it wasnt even in their Shot booth this year. The good news is that there are three manufacturers that are a little closer to getting a US made gun out this year UTAS UTX/XTR-12 ( )Standard Manufacturing SKO-12 (http://www.guns.com/2016/01/29/3016521/) Genesis Arms: (http://www.genesisarms.com/#!products/cajj) All three seem to have working prototypes, but when/if they'll hit the streets remains to be seen. Keeping my fingers crossed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) I can tell you from experience, the magazines will be the rise or fall of these guns. We have had a DPMS .308 lower based shotgun running for 18 months. The variability of existing magazines was the only thing holding back its launch. We finally started making our own Aluminum magazines in-house, because it was the only way to be sure they worked. Unfortunately the mags take 2 hours EACH to machine, so they have become the manufacturing bottleneck on our shotgun. It uses a Benelli M2 type inertia system instead of a finicky gas system. We launched it at SHOT last year, but my health problems over this last year have really slowed our ability to produce numbers. Hopefully I will get my Robo-hip installed in the near future so I can go back to productive 16 hour days. Notes on the three above: 1 and 2 actually share very little true modularity with the AR10 or DPMS platforms. More like the MK1919, there is a deliberate resemblance but operationally quite different. Neither one is shown firing. 3- I noticed when watching the video that they NEVER show continuous footage of more than 5 rounds being fired, in spite of talking about larger magazine capacity. All the 6 round strings are after reloads with one in the pipe. This is significant, because we discovered that with a magazine that will accept 3 inch shells, 5 rounds was the most we were able to get to feed reliably through the straight vertical mag well of the AR type receiver. If you reduce the shell requirement to 2-3/4 shells, you can accommodate some of the curve required to feed rimmed rounds within the confines of the existing mag well. The Rhino also was functional a couple years ago, and I was told they just didn't have a reliable magazine design at the time. Now the company is having some struggles, so the shotgun was mothballed. I truly believe there will be an arms race on the AR shotgun concept in the very near future. Prize will go to the ones that make sure theirs is 100% reliable before they develop a reputation like the Saiga. That is why we have with-held a large volume launch of the COMP-12 until we trusted the magazines. Edited February 1, 2016 by openclassterror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Sounds like we gamers need a new SuperComp rimless type 12 gauge round to make reliable high capacity shotgun mags a common reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 No, all we need is a long-term reliability confirmation of the technology that is being developed right now. It is entirely possible that one of these (hopefully ours, but at least SOMEBODIES) will be the one we have all been hoping for. I am just not willing to mass-produce magazines until we are 100% certain that the ones we are using now are legit. This isn't as easy as taking a design that has been working for 25 years and changing the material (like the Magpul P-Mag). It took a little tweaking, but look at how long guys have been fighting reliability issues with the 7.62x39, or the Grendel, Etc. Those are MINOR shape changes compared to a bull-nosed, rimmed cylinder 3/4 inch in diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I can tell you from experience, the magazines will be the rise or fall of these guns. We have had a DPMS .308 lower based shotgun running for 18 months. The variability of existing magazines was the only thing holding back its launch. We finally started making our own Aluminum magazines in-house, because it was the only way to be sure they worked. Unfortunately the mags take 2 hours EACH to machine, so they have become the manufacturing bottleneck on our shotgun. It uses a Benelli M2 type inertia system instead of a finicky gas system. We launched it at SHOT last year, but my health problems over this last year have really slowed our ability to produce numbers. Hopefully I will get my Robo-hip installed in the near future so I can go back to productive 16 hour days. Notes on the three above: 1 and 2 actually share very little true modularity with the AR10 or DPMS platforms. More like the MK1919, there is a deliberate resemblance but operationally quite different. Neither one is shown firing. 3- I noticed when watching the video that they NEVER show continuous footage of more than 5 rounds being fired, in spite of talking about larger magazine capacity. All the 6 round strings are after reloads with one in the pipe. This is significant, because we discovered that with a magazine that will accept 3 inch shells, 5 rounds was the most we were able to get to feed reliably through the straight vertical mag well of the AR type receiver. If you reduce the shell requirement to 2-3/4 shells, you can accommodate some of the curve required to feed rimmed rounds within the confines of the existing mag well. The Rhino also was functional a couple years ago, and I was told they just didn't have a reliable magazine design at the time. Now the company is having some struggles, so the shotgun was mothballed. I truly believe there will be an arms race on the AR shotgun concept in the very near future. Prize will go to the ones that make sure theirs is 100% reliable before they develop a reputation like the Saiga. That is why we have with-held a large volume launch of the COMP-12 until we trusted the magazines. There are some live fire videos of the SKO-12 from SHOT range day, but like you said, it's all 5 round mags. But yes, nothing more than some resemblance with an AR, but lacking a "real" AR10 upper/shotgun, I'd still take that over a Saiga or VEPR. Personally, I never shoot 3" shells anyway, so I could care less if it only took 2 3/4 ones and I'm guessing most competitive shooters are the same. The general tactical crowd might be different though. Edited February 5, 2016 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) The standard version of the sko-12 has possibilities...2 3/4 shells are fine with me and if the mags work with 15 and 25 rounds, and it is reliable/durable, it might be a contender, for less than 1k, too. Edited February 6, 2016 by Bamboo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1911 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I was noticing that none of shotguns look like they have interchangeable chokes. Maybe I'm just being premature on this, but it seems like something very needful especially with the short barrels they're using. Also $999 is a whole lot more doable than $2695. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 I was noticing that none of shotguns look like they have interchangeable chokes. Maybe I'm just being premature on this, but it seems like something very needful especially with the short barrels they're using. Also $999 is a whole lot more doable than $2695. About 1:50 into the first SKO video they mention it has screw in chokes. Wonder if having the top rail attached to the barrel is going to do anything to change slug zero after a few mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The SKO-12 was one of the things that jumped out at me in the SHOT coverage. I would really like to see this one succeed. And, hey, they have a bullpup version! (Okay, I have no use for the bullpup version, but I guess there's some cool factor to that...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1911 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I was noticing that none of shotguns look like they have interchangeable chokes. Maybe I'm just being premature on this, but it seems like something very needful especially with the short barrels they're using. Also $999 is a whole lot more doable than $2695. About 1:50 into the first SKO video they mention it has screw in chokes. Wonder if having the top rail attached to the barrel is going to do anything to change slug zero after a few mags. Thanks, missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I have shot WELL over 3000 rounds out of my 24 round MKA mag, the only failures I've had in a match was, using untried buckshot with a full load of 24 rounds, after the first 3 it ran the rest 100%. As far as reliability, it is better than my Benelli I used before. The SKO looks to be another MKA knock-off, hard to tell much from the video, but I see many similar/identical parts. Edited February 10, 2016 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 It seems like almost every part for the MKA 1919 is available in a US made aftermarket part except the barrel, bolt and upper receiver (I'm sure I'm overlooking a few others.) At some point I would think even the few parts that must be imported from Turkey will be produced here and then we will have a made and manufactured mag-fed shotgun. The sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 It seems like almost every part for the MKA 1919 is available in a US made aftermarket part except the barrel, bolt and upper receiver (I'm sure I'm overlooking a few others.) At some point I would think even the few parts that must be imported from Turkey will be produced here and then we will have a made and manufactured mag-fed shotgun. The sooner the better. FB makes uppers, though they're Tac12 and not compatible with the factory lowers (AFAIK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benl Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. I finally bought an MKA1919 Match last year after losing patience waiting for an American company to launch one. I must say with 10 round factory mags, it is surprisingly reliable (I bought it expecting a project and was pleasantly surprised.) The only problem is that no one makes a mag larger than 10 rounds that actually works. (I bought a 24 rounder, but could never get it to feed more than 10 rounds...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. I finally bought an MKA1919 Match last year after losing patience waiting for an American company to launch one. I must say with 10 round factory mags, it is surprisingly reliable (I bought it expecting a project and was pleasantly surprised.) The only problem is that no one makes a mag larger than 10 rounds that actually works. (I bought a 24 rounder, but could never get it to feed more than 10 rounds...) Have you tried the Firebird or Taccom extensions? I haven tried the latter, but Ive had good results with the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benl Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. I finally bought an MKA1919 Match last year after losing patience waiting for an American company to launch one. I must say with 10 round factory mags, it is surprisingly reliable (I bought it expecting a project and was pleasantly surprised.) The only problem is that no one makes a mag larger than 10 rounds that actually works. (I bought a 24 rounder, but could never get it to feed more than 10 rounds...) Have you tried the Firebird or Taccom extensions? I haven tried the latter, but Ive had good results with the former. The only one I've tried so far is the one pictured below, and couldn't get it to run, no matter what I tried. The extensions are my next try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. I finally bought an MKA1919 Match last year after losing patience waiting for an American company to launch one. I must say with 10 round factory mags, it is surprisingly reliable (I bought it expecting a project and was pleasantly surprised.) The only problem is that no one makes a mag larger than 10 rounds that actually works. (I bought a 24 rounder, but could never get it to feed more than 10 rounds...) Have you tried the Firebird or Taccom extensions? I haven tried the latter, but Ive had good results with the former. The only one I've tried so far is the one pictured below, and couldn't get it to run, no matter what I tried. The extensions are my next try. What problems are you having? What ammo are you using? These mags have excellent results overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benl Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) To be clear I never said that ALL shotgun mags over 5 rounds don't work. The Tooth and Nail mags have a great reputation in the MKA world. Specifically, I was referring to shotguns that use a true AR308 lower. The Akdal-type magazines physically slide into an AR, but were never intended to work in one, so they don't. I don't see the need for another MKA based gun. The guys who have it figured out (Matt, and scarce few others) already have the competition market well covered. I finally bought an MKA1919 Match last year after losing patience waiting for an American company to launch one. I must say with 10 round factory mags, it is surprisingly reliable (I bought it expecting a project and was pleasantly surprised.) The only problem is that no one makes a mag larger than 10 rounds that actually works. (I bought a 24 rounder, but could never get it to feed more than 10 rounds...) Have you tried the Firebird or Taccom extensions? I haven tried the latter, but Ive had good results with the former. The only one I've tried so far is the one pictured below, and couldn't get it to run, no matter what I tried. The extensions are my next try. What problems are you having? What ammo are you using?These mags have excellent results overall. If I try to load more than eight or nine rounds in the magazine, the shells "flatten out" at the feed lips, and the bolt just slams the shell into the face of the mag well. I've tried several different brands of shotgun shells and slugs and none of it works. I've also tried adjusting the feed lips, to no success. Edited February 13, 2016 by Benl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 If you're using 3" the feed lips will need to be trimmed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 My only problem with the 24 round mag is how easy it snapped in half on my first match! It ran perfectly in practice but snapped in two on the first stage of the hard as hell multigun match. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 We are making a different coupler, some where along the line the factory changed the formula of the poly, we have 2 years of hard use on the older mags. I tested one of the new setups today, took about 145# to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 What batch of magazines (time period) had the bad couplings and are replacements available? Bought mine around Father's Day 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Yours should be OK , it's the flange on the mag that's week, coupler is plenty stout. I'll give you 2 choices 1; I can send a new coupler 2; use it til it breaks, send everything back, we'll send you a new mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benl Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 If you're using 3" the feed lips will need to be trimmed back. Nope, 2 3/4". Just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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