The value of 25m Bull

[Rangerdug]

I was introduced to the slow aim 25m Bull drill (10rd/10mins/25m) through work. It is a drill that I have done hundreds of times, as a warm-up. In the last year I have completely neglected it in my training. I have noticed that in that same time, during comps and training my tight groups were gone and that I was flinching. Then a friend suggested we shoot some 25m Bulls, and it was a epiphany moment. I shot awful, but it was exactly what I was seeing in my speed shooting only slowed down, a place to get back to the basics.

[Nimitz]

my 2 cents ...

while maybe useful to ID a problem, I don't see much value in training to shoot slow. Being accurate but slow is useless in practical shooting as is being fast and not accurate. You must learn to train & compete shooting accurately at speed. That is all that ever matters ...

[motosapiens]

my 2 cents ...

while maybe useful to ID a problem, I don't see much value in training to shoot slow.

I used to think that way, but It seems like many top shooters and instructors (like brian enos and steve anderson) do not entirely agree with you.

I don't see much value in trying to shoot fast if you lack the fundamantal skills to make very accurate shots without time pressure.

It has definitely improved my shooting at speed to do a little bit of pure accuracy shooting in almost every live fire session. It has also improved my confidence because I *know* I can make the difficult shots if I just exercise proper fundamentals.

[Jake Di Vita]

You have to be able to make tight shots. Once you are able to make them under ideal circumstances, they need to be trained under pressure of time if you want those skills to translate to USPSA.

So yeah, if you can't hit something given infinite time, you definitely can't hit that same thing in a match. If you can hit something given infinite time, that still doesn't mean you can hit the same thing in a match at speed.

A very important concept that a lot of people miss is that your training stimulus must exceed whatever you could see on game day. We know hitting the targets at a high rate of speed is what makes you successful in USPSA, our practice has to exceed anything that we try in a match, so the vast majority of my practice is not going to be slow.

I agree with what Nimitz said assuming the ability to do it without time pressure exists. Once you have that, it's time for some threshold training.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[ChuckS]

A guy that I have shot with for quite a few years came to USPSA from bullseye. At first , he struggled letting go and speeding up but now he does great. And he really kicks ass on strong-hand only stages. Funny thing though, he is about as awful as everybody else weak hand.

Use only that which works, and take it from any place you find it.

-Bruce Lee

[motosapiens]

so the vast majority of my practice is not going to be slow.

Umm. I don't think anyone suggested the vast majority, or even a slight majority of one's shooting should be slow. The OP appeared to state that *some* accuracy-focused shooting had value for him in his situation, and I stated that I find it helpful to do a few minutes of accuracy focused shooting routinely, and that since I started doing that (on steve anderson's suggestion), I had noticed improvements. (i also use those few minutes of accuracy-focused shooting to also focus on shot-calling, and seeing the sights without blinking.)

Edited January 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[Jake Di Vita]

I didn't say anyone suggested that. I said the vast majority of my practice is not going to be slow. My. And I should have added that the vast majority of my practice is not going to be slower than match pace.

What I'm saying is shooting slow does not transfer to USPSA except in the circumstances that you can't execute the skill regardless of the speed. In those circumstances, learn the skill and as soon as it is learned, speed up. I think the slowest that I will shoot during "accuracy-focused" group shooting is maybe 1 second per shot. Nothing slower really applies in USPSA for me.

Those things that you focus on in your few minutes of "accuracy-focused" shooting should be focused on during all shooting regardless. Doing something slow is not and never will be equal to doing something fast. Just because you can call shots in slow fire, doesn't mean you can call them at bill drill speed. What improvements did you notice? Did it just feel better or do you have actual evidence that this made your match scores better?

If you can't shoot accurately to save your life under any circumstances, sure do some accuracy drills without time pressure. If you can shoot accurately with no time pressure but the wheels start falling off when you go a little faster, that is where you should be practicing - the point at which the wheels start to fall off. That is what threshold training is.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[motosapiens]

sounds like everyone agrees.

[Rangerdug]

my 2 cents ...

while maybe useful to ID a problem, I don't see much value in training to shoot slow. Being accurate but slow is useless in practical shooting as is being fast and not accurate. You must learn to train & compete shooting accurately at speed. That is all that ever matters ...

It must be said that it is only a tool in the vast tool box. I am told that I have Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara to thank, for stressing the importance of this drill on us at work. Like I said, this was the first drill of the day. It was the warm-up. The purpose establish and re-enforce the fundamentals and focus. From there we will typically move into more aggressive drills.

“Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.” -Aristotle

That being said, and speaking for myself. I can't tell you how many times I develop and perpetuate a bad habit, by cutting corners in training. Only after much angst and frustration, identifying the issue, and then having to unlearn it. I have found time after time, I find it is the most rudimentary drills that have been the most beneficial.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 6, 2016 by Rangerdug

[motosapiens]

alot of smart top level shooters recommend to start or finish each live fire session (or start AND finish) with group shooting. It doesn't take a whole lot of rounds, and helps reinforce fundamentals so one hopefully never gets to the point where one NEEDS to go back and focus on them again. It also reinforces confidence and self-image, so that you KNOW you can make any shot the sport requires. It also helps to discover and diagnose accuracy problems, due to ammo, gun or user malfunction.

It may not work for everyone, but it works for me (and fwiw, i'm far too ADD to spend more than a second or so on any shot. I just line up the sights, and squeeze the trigger while I continue aiming, noting the sight picture as the gun goes off. Takes less than 2 seconds/shot even if I'm REALLY careful, and usually closer to 1.)

Oh, and one more thing, I don't consider this 'training to shoot slow', I consider it 'training to shoot accurately'.

by the same token, the majority of my practice which is more speed oriented is not what I would call 'training to shoot inaccurately', but rather 'training to shoot fast'.

A wise guy said that you can't train speed and accuracy at the same time; you have to separate them. I don't know if he was telling the truth or not, but separating the two concepts in my head and in my training has been one of the things that really jumpstarted my progress this year.

Edited January 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the idea of finishing a practice session with 25-50 yard (depending on ability) bill drills at match pace instead of pure group shooting. It will accomplish most of the same things and still be very relevant to match day skills.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[motosapiens]

I like the idea of finishing a practice session with 25-50 yard (depending on ability) bill drills at match pace instead of pure group shooting. It will accomplish most of the same things and still be very relevant to match day skills.

that sounds reasonable, and obviously it is working for you. How do you judge success in that scenario? What do you do if the excercise does not result in success?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I like shooting at 2-3" dots at 10 yards - saves a lot of

walking back and forth. Shoot them slowly or at speed -

whatever.

Helps me.

[motosapiens]

I like shooting at 2-3" dots at 10 yards - saves a lot of

walking back and forth. Shoot them slowly or at speed -

whatever.

Helps me.

those are good. one thing I do find is that my visual focus is easily drawn to the target at that distance (i usually shoot 2" dots at 7 yards since I'm using irons), so I also like to mix it up and shoot the upper a-zone at 15-20 yards. If I'm feeling really frisky I'll move back and forth between positions 2-3 yards apart and shoot upper a-zones.

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the idea of finishing a practice session with 25-50 yard (depending on ability) bill drills at match pace instead of pure group shooting. It will accomplish most of the same things and still be very relevant to match day skills.

that sounds reasonable, and obviously it is working for you. How do you judge success in that scenario? What do you do if the excercise does not result in success?

Well match pace is usually a pretty comfortable pace for me so I'm rarely throwing shots and failing the drill. At 50 yards I'm looking for 1 C at the worst somewhere under 3 sec.If I do fail to score that though, it doesn't shake my confidence or anything. I'm not one of those guys who feels you have to end your practice on a good run. I rarely have any disasters there though. I'll usually run it a few times and just call it good.

[Nimitz]

Well there obviously has been a lot of posts since my initial response so I'll just say this ...

Absolutely agree that you need to have the fundamentals nailed if you expect to get anywhere (read be able to shoot accurately) but in our sport shooting accuractly at speed is all that matters. There are plenty of drills you can do to work on your accuracy at speed and since I have limited training time I need to make sure it's extremely focused and spending time during a live fire session group shooting is not productive time spent (for me). Of course I did learn to be accurate first and after seeing me shoot a famous instructor once told me during a class ... "The last thing you should be doing in a training session is group shooting!" ....

[Rangerdug]

Fundamentals are in the end fundamental... The shooter solution is individual... I agree that we are trying to shoot fast accurately, that was never in question. As a shooter I want every shot to go through the same hole. Hence, why we aim and ultimately why we practice. Each situation dictates how stringent I hold myself to that standard. It is inevitable that I will cut corners and sacrifice accuracy trying to be fast. It is usually where I allow a habit that inhibits my ability to shoot accurately (to my standards), and like a cancer only snowballs from there. It is when I push it to a point that I need to take my foot off the gas, and revaluate my fundamentals. Call it "magic", that when I do I actually get faster and more accurate. I am not saying that it is the end all be all of training. It is; however, a very effective drill that only requires 10 rounds, and at most 10 minutes of your time (shoot it fast, shoot it slow). In the end, what you choose to do to better yourself is what you are going to.

“Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.” -Aristotle

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rangerdug

[ducky0811]

Dot drills can be a good way to put the fundamentals and ipsc shooting together, I did terrible my first time, after a while though I got better and could move the dots further out. YMMV but I think it's a great drill to use to "get back to the basics" without going full Barney

[Rangerdug]

Dot drills can be a good way to put the fundamentals and ipsc shooting together, I did terrible my first time, after a while though I got better and could move the dots further out. YMMV but I think it's a great drill to use to "get back to the basics" without going full Barney

Confused by the "full Barney" statement. If I am taking in the correct context, that is pretty bold. As I have stated this is used as 10rd warm-up. Dots are a great tool. but unless you are telling me you are consistently holding tight groups on them past 15yd, How are they relevant to this conversation? Now my turn, to be so bold, who would I lean more towards; SGMs Vickers/ McNamara (great shooters in their own right) who were responsible for training the best military shooters in the world, or a recruiter? I could care less if you shoot the Bulls. Do or Don't, it doesn't change the value of it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rangerdug

[RippinSVT]

If you want my honest opinion as a fairly experienced pistol shooter (50,000+ rounds a year for 10 years), though new-ish to USPSA, a person is better off obtaining mastery of slow or paced fire before trying to focus on speed. Speed will start to happen as a corollary to mastery of sight alignment and trigger control. When I say mastery, I mean being able to knock an 8" or 10" plate regularly at 100 yards offhand, or at least be able to truly split bulletholes at 10-20 yards, repeatedly. Is this level of accuracy necessary for USPSA? No, but when you're at a point where 3" off of center is "slop" when you're firing (now) quickly, you've got a good leg up. I'll say this as matter of my own experiences and observations: generally the accuracy guys are easier to make fast than fast guys to accurate. This is a statement about new competition shooters.

As it pertains to more experienced shooters, a slow down is never a bad thing occasionally. Is shows more about trigger control than can be seen in fast fire where other movements of the gun or your body may blur what's actually happening on target. Let's not blur the lines between marksmanship and gaminess. Flying through a stage as fast as you can and making generally good hits on what is essentially a gigantic target at close range makes you good at the game, it does not necessarily translate to what I consider to be pistol mastery. I shoot many rifle/pistol disciplines, and you know what REALLY REALLY REALLY elevated my game among all disciplines? Shooting Bianchi. Back to basics, forget the running and reloads, and shoot tiny little groups under quick par times. I was hot and heavy into AP matches and practice for a few months, went to my first local USPSA match in a 7 years, and took 1st place. Why? Because my sight picture and trigger control were extremely on-point. Now, from a practical standpoint (reloads, movement, etc), Bianchi does little, which I why I got into USPSA. However, it does bridge a gap between the OP's 25yd drill and a fast-paced USPSA, Steel Challenge, or 3-gun match.

I'll continue a slow warmup/cooldown practice where I focus on nothing but extreme trigger control and sight alignment, and in between I'll run the El Pres's and whatever else.

[ducky0811]

Dot drills can be a good way to put the fundamentals and ipsc shooting together, I did terrible my first time, after a while though I got better and could move the dots further out. YMMV but I think it's a great drill to use to "get back to the basics" without going full Barney

Confused by the "full Barney" statement. If I am taking in the correct context, that is pretty bold. As I have stated this is used as 10rd warm-up. Dots are a great tool. but unless you are telling me you are consistently holding tight groups on them past 15yd, How are they relevant to this conversation? Now my turn, to be so bold, who would I lean more towards; SGMs Vickers/ McNamara (great shooters in their own right) who were responsible for training the best military shooters in the world, or a recruiter? I could care less if you shoot the Bulls. Do or Don't, it doesn't change the value of it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you may have taken that a bit out of context. I fully agree that shooting the 25m bull is a good training aid and a 10 Rd warm up. Some others were questioning why and saying it was a bit too simple to be effective. I was backing you up, not saying you're wrong. I offered the dot drill as a way to shoot at a simple target and help bring speed and accuracy together. The barney statement, is a reference to "barney style", which is more of a military term, us military shooters use a lot when talking about the core basics of something.

No need to come out and attack me, I'm agreeing with you.