Chris Leong Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Following on from other posts in this area, I was starting to think about modifying a SIG 220 or 226 for speed shooting. The 220 is in 45ACP, and the 225 can either be straight 9mm para or 9x21. Would eigher of these guns make a good plaform gun for a racegun? I was thinking that since the 226 is a great military gun and very reliable, and 30-rd highcaps are still readily available for it, it might do well. Also SIG has factory comps available (actually, they're 226 and 220 Sports models - I tried a 220 Sports for Bullseye - incredible - but not rapid fire). The model I'm thinking of has a hardened aluminum frame. Commenets? Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Aluminum ain't gonna cut it. It won't stand up to the rigors of IPSC. I've seen some pretty innovative ideas to try to make them stay together but they won't, especially if you try to load 9mm or 9x21 major. Secondly there are very few parts availible for Sigs. Modifications would have to be custom one offs and thats expensive. I know it may seem cool to try to go against the grain and you deserve points for origionality but I think you'll be disappointed in the long run. Look up SVI's sight and check prices for Open gun packages. I don't think you'll be able to match it for price or quality with any custom 'other' gun. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 The problem with using the SIGs for speed shooting (aside from the lack of durability under immense round counts of the aluminum alloy frame) is that the trigger just has too long a reset to go up against a "short-trigger" 1911 unless the 1911 guy is a total bozo. Also, on the SIGs there's a fair amount of trigger slack you have to take up after you hit the reset point. Not that I'm suggesting using a DA auto for speed shooting - there IS a reason almost all the really serious guys use 1911s - but if you absolutely wanted to, the basic S&W auto system would be a far better choice. Trigger reset is extremely short in these guns, and once you set the trigger reset there is NO slack, you can fire the gun again instantly. Get a 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Leong Posted May 8, 2001 Author Share Posted May 8, 2001 Thanks Guys I guess unless I can get my hands on a used SVI/STI, it's going to have to be Para Ord, thanks be to Kalifornia. P14/45 or 16/40 as a base gun?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Chris, I'd choose the P16, because it would be a better IPSC gun due to its extra capacity and lower recoil/torque and because its easier to load down a 40 and still maintain velociy, for steel or Bianchi matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 I don't have enough $$ for a new race gun right now. I do have a Glock that I am seriously considering running in 9x21. Everybody has a Glock, right? Even in Cali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Chris, The reply's concerning single stacks are right on the money. I know this has been said a million times, but... If you are WONDERING what to use for a particular endeavor, study what the top guys use. Even I have a Glock, a 26 or 27 or whatever the little 9mm is. It's pretty cool; I can, sometimes, hit 8 inch plates at 80 yds with it. Ask Robbie. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 I agree with most the above comments except Duane's (well we have to disagree once in awhile) I don't believe trigger pull length has Anything to do with pure trigger speed. Just ask Jerry M. the revolver wiz. Seriously I've dropped the hammer on just about any type of gun from 1911's to Sigs, Para-Ordanace DA only's to revolvers. My predictable splits vary at best .04 of a sec. From .14 with a 1911 racegun to .16 with a Para DA only and .18 with a stock revolver. Granted we're talking extreme speed hosing here but the ability to pull the trigger at that speed proves that length doesn't count it's how you use it. On my race gun I back the reset screw right out to maximum...lots of travel. Doesn't affect my speed and helps my points. I have pulled down to a (one time) .09 in a match ('99 Canadian Nationals) with that set up. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 I think the trigger pull/sensitivity issue is a temperament/motor skill issue. Fine motor skilled individuals seem to prefer a trigger pull with less movement, while gross motor skilled individuals seem not to mind, or even prefer triggers with more movement. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I guess I'm gross then! But I am sensitive to the 'quality' of a trigger pull does this make sense? Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 "My predictable splits vary at best .04 of a sec. From .14 with a 1911 racegun to .16 with a Para DA only and .18 with a stock revolver. Granted we're talking extreme speed hosing here but the ability to pull the trigger at that speed proves that length doesn't count it's how you use it." But Pat... (a) a difference of .04 second, 1911 vs. revolver, doesn't sound like much until you realize that, compared to .14 second, that's a difference in performance of 23 percent. ( the Para "DAO" (**HACK! COUGH!**) is not exactly your typical double action trigger pull. DAO, my ass. Only technically. © on a double action revolver, assuming something resembling a stock spring set-up, the trigger return is much more powerful than on a DA auto. Despite the much longer trigger travel, I find a DA revolver can be fired faster than a SIG, it's not just the length of trigger return that's important, but how fast and powerfully the trigger travels that distance. You've seen the trigger return spring on a SIG, or a Beretta 92, or a Browning Hi-Power. Wim-py! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Thought that length reference might attract some attention...lol. Now then, yes when expressed as a percentage it may seem like a lot of difference but listen to a 14 split and a 18 split and tell me if it really makes a difference. Yes the DAO Para is not your average DA pull but it is long. it may be light but the return spring is also light. True the return spring assists in trigger speed and that is a point for you. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Leong Posted May 18, 2001 Author Share Posted May 18, 2001 Thanks guys for the input. I'm going for a P16 as my principal gun, then maybe a P9 as a second one, both in 40S&W. I'm thinking of going with a square deal press in 40 and just concentrating on the one caliber until I know what I'm doing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 Chris, If you get the P-16 you can get an identical top end comped with an optima and have a 2 for one. I've been shooting a .40 open for about 16 months. I heard all the you'll never be competitive. BS I'm regularly beating the .38's etc. You save money on mags, brass, etc. If you're on a budget it is the cheap way to do it up. You have to go with the optima or other slide mounted optic. That is the biggest draw back. Mine is a frame mounted so I have two different guns. Just a thought for you. Remember it is the person not the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 Pat, Just a comment on your gross motor skill thing - Michael sent me some pictures of you via email shooting a super flaming comp gun. The amazing thing was, the first thing I noticed when I looked at the pictures was that your physical stance is virtually identical to Robbies. (gross motor skilled) Funny stuff huh? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 Yeah, I kinda got the same stumpy legs and long back too! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 18, 2001 Share Posted May 18, 2001 Word about those flames. That is my shootoff's load; a 124 gr tmj bullet with 8.0 gr of 3N37. My current IPSC load is 9.5 of 3N37 with a 115 gr Rem tmj bullet (don't duplicate without starting lower my gun needs a bit more powder than some). The flames are even bigger! Those Photos were taken from a Sony digital camera right after the PPC indoor Provincials. I shot that gun and load in the match (they have an Open Division here in Ontario) I wonder why none of the regular PPC guys wanted to shoot beside me on the line? I was left all alone at the end of the line! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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