Short Versus Long Guide Rods

[surfmaster]

A local gunsmith is in the process of building a shorty 38 supercomp STI frame race gun for me. He recommends a short guide rod since the long version would extend past the dust shield. I was wondering whether there are any advantages or disadvantages over using a short guide rod versus a long guide rod? Do I need to cut recoil spring to make it fit with the short guide rod system? Your feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ErikW]

The spring length is not affected by the length of the rod, but by the distance from the rod head to the end of the spring tunnel. (That is, more or less, to the end of the slide.) So if you have a shorty you are going to need shorter springs anyway. Basically, do what your gunsmith recommends.

[surfmaster]

Erik:

Thanks for your reply.

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

i build all my short guns with a 5" recoil system which extends out and under the comp. when i first began building and testing short open pistols, i found that by using the 5" spring and guide rod the gun was much softer shooting. i had built a few with the commander length system and had the customers send them back to me and installed the 5" system and they said it was a noticeable difference. chuck bradley had one of the first guns with the commander length recoil system and we changed his over and he'll tell you the same thing, it makes a huge difference.

[J.L. Hardy]

Dan, as you probably know that analysis is completely subjective. I have had just as many folks make the same comments regarding use of the commander system. In reality both systems are just as good. It really comes down to aestetics. Does the owner care or mind that the recoil plug hangs out there under the comp? Please don't take this as critical of the system you use. I have used both as well. I just came to the conclusion that with the proper choice of recoil springs, there just isn't a dimes worth of difference in the two. As I understand it you use a recoilmaster and this does have a different feel to it. Some folks like that feel and others don't. This pretty much makes the choice subjective to different shooters. As long as the gun is reliable and the shooter spends the time and effort to practice with what they have it isn't going to make a difference in their ability either. good shooting, J.L. hardy

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

we use both the recoil master and standard guide rod and spring in our short guns,based on the customers request. the use of the 5" system in the short gun definately has an affect on the handling of the gun as compared to the commander length system. before we decided to go completely to the 5" system, i took 2 short guns around to some of the local ranges, one with the 5" system and one with the commander length system, both guns using the same weight but different length springs and the same exact ammo. every single person that shot the 2 guns agreed that the gun with the 5" recoil system shot noticeably softer. i recently had a customer of mine take a class with Max Michel. He asked Max if he would like to try the gun, after firing the gun Max had made a comment that he was very surprised at how soft the gun had shot as compared to all the other short guns he'd shot.

[J.L. Hardy]

Dan, until someone designs a piece of equipment that measures linear recoil and muzzel flip in some sort of numerical way there simply are too many variables and feel is just too subjective. Again, I am not critical of the system you use either the standard spring or the recoilmaster. Obviously, they both work for you. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

i know we all have our own combination of setup and parts that work for us. what i have done is simply taken all of the input from shooters that have tried the different setups we have built to come up with the product we now produce. that's not to say mine works better or is better than any other setup out there but it seems that the 5" system with my combination of other components works well enough that the majority of shooters were able to tell the difference. i'm glad to hear from you as well as other builders to get input as to what you are using as compared to myself. i think it keeps us all trying new things. thanks JL

[chuckbradley]

When i first wanted to build a shorty I thought everything through, I thought. I first sent Dan a 4.15" recoilmaster from STI. I then tried a regular rod & spring. Tried several different springs. Because of the short space available to hold a coiled spring I had to cut the spring down. Then I had a problem with the spring having enough power to close the slide. I went to a heavier & heavier spring until it would close. I shot that configuration a couple years ago at Area 6. It was brutal. The dot would come all the way out of the lense. I sent the gun back to Dan with a 5" system. He installed it which requires some relief under the comp for the reverse plugs. He now makes the comps with a little more meat underneath to accomodate the relief for the reverse plug. He brought the gun to me the next week to the Ohio buckeye blast. I ended up winning that match with the gun. It was the difference in night & day. I believe the way we are setting up our short guns is the ultimate configuration. And most the people buyng them seem to agree. I am not saying the short gun will be as flat shooting as a full 5" gun but when you consider the advantage to having such a light, fast cycling gun , fast transitioning gun with slightly more dot rise I think you will find the nod going to the shorty, our shorty with the 5" recoil system. Its not easy for everybody to do this. If you dont use a comp that is made to accomodate the relief cut for the reverse plug you are cutting the metal dangerously thin or outright cutting through the bottom of the comp. So for a gunsmith to admit that the 5" recoil system is superior would mean they would have to use Dans comp since he is the only one making the comp to fit the need. The other option is to just say all shorty's are to violent and just build 5" guns. Guess one of our secrets is out. Thats ok we still have a couple more.

[J.L. Hardy]

Chuck, you are right on with your sumation with what it takes to use the 5 inch recoil system in the short gun. But you also uncover the problem associated with someone setting up a gun using the commander setup that doesn't know the correct springs to use. You cannot simply shorten gov't springs to fit the system. The commander springs and Gov't springs are two different animals. If you shorten Gov't springs you must do just as you stated- use progressively heavier spring rates to make them work. Commander springs have a different compression rate and are properly proportioned giving them the proper functionality and "feel". Again, i don't think one could state that one gun set up properly would be dramatically different from the other gun properly set up. Both systems are good. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

i don't know what springs chuck may have tried, we tried them all, but the only springs that i used for testing the commander length system were commander length springs. JL is correct in saying that you should not use a cut down gov't spring in a commander setup because it will have an adverse affect on the opening and closing pressure of the spring. the debate could go on forever over which system is better, i'll leave that to the shooters, they will be the ones to determine which one fits their wants or needs better. thanks chuck and jl for your input.

[DGDDS91]

I have had two shorty guns built by Dan Bedell the past year and a half. Originally both guns had commander length springs and guide rods. Aside from going through recoil prematurely, the guns felt quicker but much more violent. At Dan Bedell's recommendation, he changed my main gun over to the standard guide rod system. It made all the difference in the world. The gun is still real quick and much much softer to shoot. I made him change my back-up gun over immediately. My shooting improved very quickly after that do to the reduced recoil felt with the gun set-up as Dan recommended. I feel that every shooter is different, and will have different opinions on this topic, but I do know that many people are shooting Dan Bedell's guns and love the system he is using. I am starting to see other gunsmiths moving to this system now, which says a lot for Dan Bedell and the quality of gun he builds.

[RKooi]

Well, I guess it truly is a case of different strokes for different folks (get it?) I shoot one of JL's guns with the commander spring set up and don't find it to be harsh or brutal at all. Bob Londrigan wrote an article that was in Front Sight in '02 (and that is still on his website) that made alot of sense to me. He describes his quest for the short, fast open gun and identifies what he wanted as the evolution of the Pro Sx began. He writes, in part:

"For this gun, I decided to make a custom guide rod plug and guide rod so that I could use a commander spring instead of the government model spring. The commander spring is lighter and shorter. It loads up quicker and lets off quicker producing a perceived quick, soft recoil impulse."

I agree with this assessment.

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

like i said before, it's not all in the recoil system but in the combination of all the components working together. i'm not saying that i'm right and everyone else is wrong, just that with the setup we are now using we have proven that the 5" system, in our guns, works better. which may not be the case with other builders combinations. we might all be right or wrong but we do what has shown to work for us.